The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:29 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session. Before we begin today,I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on your agenda. And I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

Emergency Question: COVID-19 Restrictions

The first item this afternoon is the emergency question, which is to be asked to the First Minister, and it will be asked by Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s proposals to introduce further restrictions in response to the COVID-19 pandemic? (EQ0008)

Mark Drakeford AC: The virus cases in Wales continue to rise, putting our NHS under intense and sustained strain, from a combination of pandemic and winter pressures. The conditions have been met in Wales to move to alert level 4, as set out in the document published—[Interruption.]

Sorry, First Minister. I think you can carry on.

Mark Drakeford AC: Apologies, Llywydd. Conditions have been met in Wales to move to alert level 4, as set out in the document published on Monday of this week. We will introduce new tightened measures to protect people's health and to save lives.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, First Minister. Of course, it's deeply regrettable that Wales is at the point where further nationwide restrictions will be implemented to combat the dramatic rise in COVID-19 cases across the country, and this will be a bitter blow for many people across Wales who have complied with Government restrictions all year long and now face further restrictions on their lives. However, the figures speak for themselves, and given that the R rate is now above 1.4 in Wales, and because the confirmed case rate has exceeded the threshold for alert level 4 in the coronavirus control plan, then I can very much understand the basis of the Welsh Government's decision.
Firstly, there will be many people who will understandably question perhaps the proportionality of these measures, particularly those people that live in areas like Gwynedd and Ynys Môn. So, can the First Minister confirm that these arrangements will be reviewed and that targeted restrictions will be brought forward for specific areas if the scientific evidence permits? Of course, at present, these measures will follow a period of relaxation in restrictions between 23 and 27 December, where people from Wales will be permitted to travel across the UK. And I know that the Welsh Government and the UK Government have been discussing the Christmas period over the past 24 hours, and I understand that a statement will be forthcoming in due course. But perhaps the First Minister could make it clear exactly what the arrangements are in relation to travel, both within Wales and, indeed, across other parts of the United Kingdom as well.
It's also crucial that there is adequate funding and resources in place to underpin the move to level 4 restrictions in Wales, so that people and businesses that need support can have access to it. We simply can't allow people and businesses to bear the brunt of these restrictions without Government support. And so, can he tell us what additional support has been earmarked for level 4 restrictions, and can he confirm that support will be made available urgently and not further down the line?
Now, support must be forthcoming for people who need it in terms of their mental health, and I seriously hope that the Welsh Government is prioritising mental health services and support to ensure that people will be supported throughout this period. Therefore, can the First Minister tell us more about the assistance that he will be making available during the alert level 4 period?
Whilst these restrictions are being introduced during a period where children and young people are not in school and in university settings, there will still be some concerns over what this announcement may mean for the start of the next academic term. And so, can the First Minister confirm what discussions are taking place with the education sector about the impact of level 4 restrictions? And can he confirm that he still intends to allow children and students to return to schools, colleges and universities in January?
The Welsh Government also has a duty to effectively communicate any precautionary measures to the people of Wales in order to instil public confidence and compliance with these new measures. And so, between now and 26 December, can he tell us what guidance and communication will be made by the Welsh Government, to ensure the people of Wales fully understand the new measures, how they can actually access support, and, crucially, why these restrictions are now being implemented in the first place?
And, finally, Llywydd, perhaps the First Minister could tell us how these restrictions will be evaluated alongside the vaccine deployment programme, as that will also have an important role in tackling the virus over the Christmas period. The people of Wales need hope, and the vaccine programme is an important part of reminding the people that there is light at the end of this very dark tunnel and we have to be positive about the progress being made on this front. Therefore, it's crucial that further detail is now provided on these matters, and I welcome any further updates that the First Minister is able to give in his response. Diolch, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the leader of the opposition both for his understanding of the conditions that have led to today's announcement and for the detailed questions that he has posed. It is our intention that these will be all-Wales restrictions, despite the fact that there is variation in the level of coronvirus in different parts of Wales. Coronavirus is rising in every part of our country, and we have an obligation to take the action that will protect all parts of our country, and that is why we will do this on an all-Wales basis. But, as Paul Davies acknowledged, the document published on Monday sets out a path through which, if some parts of Wales in a reliable and sustainable way demonstrated that they were in a different part of the spectrum to other parts of Wales, that can be recognised through different levels of restriction. We are not in that position here today. But I've given a commitment today that we will review the level 3, level 4 restrictions three weeks after they are introduced, and that will give us an opportunity to see whether that reliable, sustainable differentiation has been achieved.
On travel arrangements, the travel arrangements for the five days of the Christmas period are not changing. The advice to people will be strengthened today in the joint statement that we will publish from all four Governments, urging people only to travel where necessary, and particularly not to travel from high-incidence to low-incidence areas, and I very much endorse that advice, which will be set out later in the afternoon.
As for funding, we will provide a further enhanced level of funding beyond the £340 million we have already announced. We will make details of that available before the end of this week. We will look to use, as much as possible, established means of getting help from the Welsh Government to the businesses who require it, because using established mechanisms means that we can do it most swiftly. And I reported to the Senedd yesterday that, in the package of measures originally announced when changes were made to hospitality, millions of pounds have already been put into the hands of businesses that are affected, and I'm very grateful indeed to our local authority colleagues for the help that they are providing in that.
We rehearsed yesterday and the leader of the opposition made a number of important points about mental health, Llywydd.I won't repeat them here, other than to say that, in the balance of harm that lie behind all the decisions we make as a Government, the impact on people's mental health and well-being is always consciously part of the calculation that we make, and we go on doing that, and the services that we provide to help people with the impact of changes on their mental well-being will be there in the post-Christmas period.
There are discussions going on, of course, about the start of the next term of education. I discussed this matter myself with the education Minister yesterday, and she continues to be directly engaged with local education authorities, trade unions, parents and others. It remains a significant priority for the Welsh Government to make sure that children do not lose out on education, and that is how we will approach the start of the next school term.
Finally, to agree with what Paul Davies said about the importance of offering people some hope, even in these very difficult times, vaccination will continue as planned during the level 4 restriction period. We've had the first vaccination of care home residents happening in Wales today. Despite the very significant short-term challenges we face, the prospects into next year are different, and communicating that to our fellow citizens remains part of how we will help people to deal with the difficulties that we know are faced in individual lives by the circulation of the virus in Wales.

Adam Price AC: We called yesterday for you, First Minister, to give urgent consideration to introducing tier 4 restrictions earlier than the twenty-eighth, if, as is clear, many areas in Wales are already at the level of severity that is set out in the document that you published. So, we welcome that. The obvious question is, given that many areas in Wales are already at that level of severity, why wait even until Christmas evening and the days following. Why not intervene earlier, particularly in those areas of the highest infection? In relation to some areas of Wales, for instance, in the north-west—I believe, there were no new cases in Ynys Môn yesterday—is there not a case still, given that you've conceded the principle of having a regionalised or localised approach as appropriate, why that regional approach shouldn't be also implemented earlier to reflect what does seem to be a different pattern in those parts of Wales?
In relation to the Christmas relaxation, I welcome the new guidance from the Welsh Government, but isn't there a danger that if the guidance and the rules are not aligned, that could lead to mixed messaging and confusion? And I say that particularly given the very different message coming out of London and Westminster this afternoon, where the Prime Minister, in the last hour, has been on his feet saying that there was 'unanimous agreement' that the Christmas plans must still go ahead. And he's been characterising the leader of your party as the Christmas Grinch who would steal Christmas, and he's been the one defending it. He said some rather negative things about the Welsh Government's policy in relation to the firebreak as well at the same time. So, it seems to me that there is a danger, because of the mixed messaging, that people won't get the message that you're trying to get out that we're in a different situation in Wales, and, as a result of that, we can't relax the rules in the same way and, unless you change the rules, people might draw the wrong conclusion, First Minister. So, I'd like you particularly to address this point as to whether we need to change the rules in order to back up the clear guidance that you have now embraced.
On a more general level, we've had a number of changes in Welsh Government policy in short order, haven't we, over the last six weeks? So, we had the firebreak. We believe we came out of the firebreak too abruptly. We said that at the time—that there should have been a kind of buffer phase of still higher restrictions. We went then to probably, actually, at the time, First Minister, one of the most liberal regimes in terms of rules anywhere in the UK for a period, then we moved into what some would have seen as a fairly rapid or draconian shift to higher restrictions. Now, we've had this announcement today. I think the Welsh Government has, relatively speaking—compared, certainly, to the UK Government—had high levels of approval, largely because of the consistency and the cautious, slow and steady approach that you've adopted for most of the pandemic. Do you think that that has been undone over the last few weeks? How can you rebuild that sense of a clear, consistent line so we don't have a chopping and changing approach, where we're going in and out of restrictions, and that is causing confusion and some degree of public fatigue, so that, where we're now moving, sadly, into a situation where we have to increase the level of restrictions again, we can see a clear and consistent path to driving the level of prevalence down and moving down the tiers, rather than having to move them up and down, as we've seen, unfortunately, over the last few weeks?

Mark Drakeford AC: The leader of Plaid Cymru asked me, 'Why wait?' Well, because we are, as ever, balancing many different types of harm. Practically the only thing that we could do today that we are not doing until Christmas Eve is to close all non-essential retail. Of course, we have looked very carefully at whether we should do that now, but he will know that for so many firms in Wales, this trading period up to Christmas is the most important couple of weeks in the whole of the calendar year.
We are balancing harms to the economy, as we balance harms to health. We are balancing issues of equality as well; the poorer you are, the closer to Christmas you go out and buy things because you have to wait to know how much money you've got in your pocket to do that. We could close non-essential retail today and those people who are fortunate enough to have had money already, or who can easily buy things on-line, would find ways around it and those families who are already the most disadvantaged in Wales would find themselves further disadvantaged again. There are a series of different harms that you are forever having to balance. Our view is that the balance that we have struck, being clear that immediately after Christmas there will be significant new restrictions because of the health harms that we face, together with the things that we are doing in the period up to Christmas, strikes the best balance that we can find.
The leader of Plaid Cymru asked me why particularly did we not introduce those changes in areas of highest infection. Well, the answer is they simply wouldn't be effective. To close non-essential retail in some parts of Wales is no guarantee at all that people would not then make their way to other parts of Wales where shops are open. It simply would not be an effective measure to take and it would be a gesture without an impact. I don't think we want to be in that territory. Having asked me why I didn't do more in some areas, he asked me why I didn't do less in others, and the answer to that is that we continue to have strong advice that national measures—single messages conveyed everywhere in the clearest way we can—have the most opportunity to be observed and therefore to be effective. I will not offer a lower level of protection for some parts of Wales than others while I believe that that would save people's lives.
And while it is true that at the moment—at the moment—things are not as bad in Gwynedd and Ynys Môn as they were in those counties just a couple of weeks ago, and as bad as their neighbours find themselves, I do not feel that we have as yet a reliable pattern, and a pattern that gives us confidence, that those areas will continue to be at those lower levels into the future so that you would be prepared to offer them a lower level of protection. What has happened in London over the last few days has borne out everything that the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies has told us: that lower levels of protection simply lead to higher levels of infection in the future. I don't want to see that happen in any part of Wales. As I said to Paul Davies, however, if a genuine, reliable and sustainable pattern of differentiation were to establish itself, then the review period at the end of three weeks will allow us to attend to that, and the plan we published on Monday gives us a path to regional differentiation. We are not in that position today; it would not be in the interests of the communities that Adam Price pointed to.
Llywydd, I'm not responsible for the Prime Minister's unfortunate views, and there is no mixed message here in Wales. The message that I have been giving I repeat now: the position in Wales is so serious that over the Christmas period, only two households should think of coming together in the single extended household we already have. We will, for those five days, allow a single-person household to join with that extended household, but that is the full extent of household mixing that we should see here in Wales. We agreed in the four-nation meeting today a strengthened set of messages that will apply in every part of the United Kingdom. We also agreed that it was essential that we were still able to respond to the different patterns that we see across the four nations. I am fully signed up to the joint statement that we will make as four nations this afternoon, and I am fully signed up to the message that I have been giving throughout the last hour and a half that here in Wales, two households only should come together.
Adam Price points to the fact that we have had changing patterns of coronavirus here in Wales and that we've had to respond to them. I don't agree with him that most people in Wales would have regarded the terms on which we came out of our firebreak as liberal; only two households in Wales have been able to meet together, only four people have been able to meet together in any outdoor venue. Those are extraordinary restrictions on people's normal ability to meet with one another and they've been in place here in Wales ever since the firebreak ended. Of course, we are all having to calibrate our response to the changing pattern we see. It's only a week ago that the leader of Plaid Cymru was urging me to keep pubs open for longer and complaining that I wasn't allowing for alcohol to be served. Today, he recognises the different position that we are in in Wales. All of us are having to think about the response we make because the virus changes in front of us every day, and the impact it makes on our public services changes as well.
I thank the leader of Plaid Cymru for what he said about the document we published on Monday; it was intended to provide greater clarity for people about the pathways that exist between the different levels of intervention we need here in Wales. We have had to say today that the detail that that document provides on level 4 restrictions will come into place in Wales immediately after Christmas, but it also sets out for people how things can be different in the future. When conditions allow, we will move from those very severe restrictions and necessary restrictions in the post-Christmas period to a different future, and in doing so, I believe we will continue to have the solid support of the vast majority of people here in Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I say I fully support the decisions of the First Minister? But we are moving into the most dangerous seven days of the year: office party time. What is the Welsh Government doing to try and stop these parties taking place? Some will have food, some will have drinks, some will take place in the office, but these office parties—we've got to try and stop them happening. Whilst families meeting have a short chain, office parties—followed by returning home, possibly via public transport—have an elongated series of chains.

Mark Drakeford AC: Mike Hedges makes a very important point, which I'm very keen to reinforce. Of course we are not in a period where large numbers of people coming together to mix in any circumstances ought to be contemplated with anybody prepared to take their responsibilities seriously. And in a workplace setting, not only will there be individuals who ought to take that responsibility, but there will be people in charge of those settings bound by the regulations we have here in Wales that, in the workplace, all necessary measures must be taken to protect against the danger that coronavirus provides. So, let me be clear: it would be entirely against those regulations, and entirely in breach of the responsibility of those people who are in charge of office settings, if office parties of the sort that Mike Hedges described were to take place. In other settings, in hospitality settings, then of course the restrictions we have already put in place would deal with that, because no more than four people are able to come together in such settings from four different households. So, I do hope that nobody thinks that this is an opportunity to try to stretch, bend or break those rules, and that no setting thinks that this is the moment in which they should connive in that sort of activity. The position in Wales is far beyond the point where anybody should believe that that would be something sane or defensible to do.

Joyce Watson AC: I rise to speak, obviously, in support of the First Minister. My overriding reaction to today's announcement is relief. We look at the numbers, and we listen to the health officials and the front-line NHS staff, just in my own region, and the situation is in extreme danger of spiralling out of control. They're not my words, of course; those are the words of those people who had to make those very difficult decisions. You, First Minister, and your Cabinet, have equally had to make some very difficult decisions, and I commend you for doing that. Nobody wants to stand up and say to other people, 'You can't do what it is you want to do'. But you have to also take note of those people who we've all heard on the radio, on the tv, on Twitter—those health professionals asking us to take action. And we can't ignore that. I hope that everybody who speaks today—and I'm really pleased that those who have spoken so far do—reflects that situation, and the seriousness of it, and the unsustainable pressure that is arising on our NHS staff. We are, of course, we all know, in the winter months, and normally there are areas of pressure, but if you add in COVID-19 figures to that, then I think it's pretty obvious to anybody that understands those figures that urgent action had to be taken—

You need to come to a question now, Joyce Watson, please.

Joyce Watson AC: There is light at the end of the tunnel—what has been and remains a very dark tunnel—and I'm really pleased to hear what you've said. But I have one request today, First Minister. I ask if you'll send out a message to people about supermarket workers. We've all seen the fact that they have suffered this year, more than any other year, abuse in the shops, so will you please join with me in asking people, as they rush to buy food, that they pay respect to those supermarket and shop workers who will be working to serve them so that they get what they need and what they want?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Joyce Watson for what she has said? One of the prime reasons why the Cabinet decided to bring forward this announcement to today was to make sure that people who work at the front line of our health and social care services knew that their Government was taking action on their behalf. We have been assessing this over a number of days, so we know that we were preparing for this moment, but there is no reason why they should know that, and that sense of relief that Joyce Watson referred to I think will be shared by those people who now know that actions are being taken in Wales, that we are not shying away from them, that we will not do what is sometimes the easy thing in avoiding the difficult messages Governments have to share.
So, I think we will be reinforcing the best instincts of people in Wales, because most people in Wales want to do the right thing. They want to make their contribution. They want to know that their Government is providing the context that allows them to play their part in this great national effort, and the reason for making this decision and announcing it today was to attend to the views of our front-line workers, but to give our fellow citizens the time they need in order to make the preparation for the changes that they will now have to abide by.
That will undoubtedly place even greater pressure on those people who throughout this pandemic have turned up to work every day in our supermarkets, putting themselves in harm's way in order to make sure that the rest of us are able to go out and get the food we need, even at the point of the greatest restrictions on other parts of our lives. Let me say this afternoon, Llywydd: I look to the supermarkets themselves to make sure that they take every action to protect those spaces as places where public health needs to be observed, and to protect their staff in the work that they do.
I look to the supermarkets to make sure that they set maximum limits for the number of people who should be inside a supermarket at any one time; that they police that carefully at the front door, that when they have one-way systems in their stores that those one-way systems are there to be observed, not simply to be put on the floor; that they provide advice regularly to people over the tannoy so that people understand what is expected of them; that when people come to queue to leave the supermarket and to pay for their goods, that that is done in a way that respects the public health crisis we are in, and respects the workers who are there to help the rest of us.
So, I am absolutely happy to send that message that Joyce Watson asked me to. Those people go into work every day so that the rest of us are able to go and buy the things, those necessities of life, and their contribution should be celebrated and it should be respected as well.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I thank the First Minister for what he's had to say; it's obviously a very difficult time for everybody. I've got some very specific questions I'd like to ask. First of all, First Minister, how will this affect hotels, many of which have taken bookings for the period twenty-third to the twenty-seventh? They assumed they were safe to do that. If hospitality is closing down completely on Christmas Day, how does that affect those hotels? They need to know now, First Minister, because if they must cancel bookings, then they must do that straight away.
There will be some businesses, First Minister, for whom this opening and shutting and opening and shutting isn't sustainable. We have spoken to your Government before about the need, potentially, for long-term support to enable some businesses to hibernate into the next spring period. I know you'll be very well aware of the costs to businesses of opening and shutting, particularly of hospitality businesses. Can Government give further consideration to how that medium-term support for those businesses that might prefer to hibernate, rather than open and shut, might be provided?
When does he think he might be able to give any idea to those businesses who do want to reopen of what that kind of timescale might be? I do appreciate, First Minister, that it's all down to how the virus behaves and we can't predict that, but it is difficult for businesses if they don't know whether they're looking at reopening in mid January, no consideration of that being possible until the end of January. Can he give them any other guidance?
And finally, with regard to what he said today about only two households meeting in Wales for Christmas, can he just clarify for us—is that advice from the Welsh Government now, is that guidance, or will that be law? Because I think, as you said, First Minister, in response to a number of people already today, it's really important that people understand what's required of them. He'll forgive me, I'm sure, but I'm not sure in my own mind by what you've said so far, if we're talking here about advice, strongly-worded advice, guidance, which is more formal but if you break it, you're not breaking the law, or an actual legal requirement.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, on that final point from Helen Mary Jones, I'll make a final decision on that matter when the statement between the four nations is agreed and published. It provides the context within which that decision must be made. I think it is possible to overstate the significance of the decision. Most of our fellow citizens do not pore over the distinction between guidance and regulation. They want to know what the right thing is to do. And here is the right thing to do: in Wales, two households only should meet over Christmas. There it is. I don't think it can be plainer. I don't think it can be stated any more clearly. Whether we continue to provide that as guidance or regulation will depend on the wider context, which will become clear this afternoon, and I'll make a final decision on that at that point, but the message will be the same. The message is identical in either case, and it's the message, as I think Adam Price said, that is the key thing here, that we get that message over to people as clearly as we can, and I really don't think I could have been clearer in it.
We are working with hotels and other sectors during the day to give them the clarity that they need. Much of what we have provided already is sufficient to allow for a hibernation period in tourism and some hospitality businesses, and there will be further help as a result of the decisions that we have made today. I'm afraid Helen Mary Jones got it right herself, really, in answering her own question about when businesses can reopen. There will be a three-week review, so we will take all the evidence into account at that point. If it is possible to offer any lightening of restrictions regionally or nationally, of course that is what we would want to do, but it will depend entirely on the extent to which these measures are by then relieving the pressure that we see on the health service today and which is unsustainable unless measures are taken to reverse that trend. If the trend is reversed sustainably within three weeks, that will create one context. If we have to go further and do more in order to make our health service available to people in Wales, not just for coronavirus but all the other things we look for, then that is what we will do.

Carwyn Jones AC: I thank the First Minister for his answers to the questions today. These are difficult times for businesses, and for communities, and indeed for Government. Those of us who sit on the back benches in this Chamber will know that for every email we get demanding that restrictions be eased, we get another email demanding that restrictions be tightened. It's not easy to take the best decision in those circumstances, and the Welsh Government has taken the right decisions. Nor is it easy to offer regional solutions in Wales. Wales is much, much smaller in land area than both England and Scotland, and it's wishful thinking to believe that the virus can be contained or kept away from one part of Wales. When you cross into the county of Conwy from the east, you do not go through a Checkpoint Charlie. It's easy to cross the boundary, and rightly so. The Menai strait is not the width of the Irish sea, so that does not act as a natural barrier, and people will cross boundaries if they have to. I will join with the leader of the opposition and with my colleague Joyce Watson about the importance of hope. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It's simply a question of how many lives we can preserve until we reach that destination. So, my question, Llywydd, is this: with a view to offering people hope, because there have been inevitably lots of restrictions over the last few months, is the First Minister able to say when we might reach a clinically significant number of vaccinated people, so that at that point people can begin to dream of a return to normality?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Carwyn Jones for those questions and for the insight that he brings, of course, into the continuously challenging balance of judgments that we have to make in the Welsh Government, and of course he is right. When people write to us with very different points of view, it is never because one point of view has all the right things on its side and the other point of view has no merit.
I have been listening very carefully, of course, in recent days to all the messages we are receiving from senior clinicians and front-line workers, just as I have been listening to messages from informal carers in communities in Wales who have told me of the necessity for them to have some wider family support over this Christmas to go on doing all the things that they do every day to look after other people in Wales. One group of people urges me to tighten things, the other group of people urges me not to. Both have very strong arguments to make, as they pass those messages to me. And it is the balancing judgment that Carwyn Jones referred to that we have to have. And, of course, he's right to point to the limitations on regional solutions here in Wales. It's why I keep having to emphasise that what we would have to see established is not a temporary difference between one part of Wales or another, or an oscillating pattern of numbers rising and numbers falling, but a sustained and sustainable difference between some parts of Wales and others. Now, that can happen and may happen over the weeks ahead, and if it does, then our plan allows us to respond to that. But just as we have seen parts of Wales with numbers falling, those same parts of Wales, at different points, have been at the highest end of coronavirus during the months that have gone past. So, we would need to be in a different level of reliability of differentiation in order to take advantage of the decision-making pathway that the plan allows us to go down.
I'll end my reply to Carwyn Jones's question by agreeing with him about the importance of hope. Today, we are vaccinating people who live in care homes for the first time in Wales. We vaccinated a number of people in Wales at the top end of our expectation last week. If we are to get to the volumes that we would wish to see and the impact that we would wish to see in people's lives, then we must look to other vaccinations also receiving regulatory approval in order to get the volume of vaccinations to happen here in Wales. And even with everything being in place and with a huge determination of our health professionals in Wales to make that contribution, I'm afraid we are not going to be in that position until well into the second quarter of next year at the earliest.

I thank the First Minister.

1. Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

The next item is questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs. The first question is from Vikki Howells.

Snares

Vikki Howells AC: 1. What analysis has the Welsh Government made during this Senedd term of how the Code of Practice on the Use of Snares in Fox Control has worked? OQ56037

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Following the publication of the code in 2015, my officials have met annually with stakeholders to gather evidence on the use of snares in Wales. The evidence gathered is used to assist officials in considering whether a voluntary approach in driving up operator practice and animal welfare standards is working.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. One hundred and fifteen cases of animals trapped in snares have been reported to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals since the code was introduced. Wild animals, including protected species, farm animals and pets, with many of these cases involving traps set in breach of the code, and this, of course, could just be the tip of the iceberg.
Animal welfare charities rightly say that the code isn't working. The only way to stop this indiscriminate suffering is to bring in a ban. So, I was disappointed to see that the agriculture White Paper only talks about regulation. The voluntary approach hasn't worked, so why does the Welsh Government feel that regulation rather than an outright ban on the cruelty and pain caused by snares is the right way forward?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You do raise a very important point and I think it is important that we continue to try and collect evidence on snare use in Wales where we can. But, clearly, we do need clear requirements, I think, for recording and reporting, in order that our evidence base is complete. As you're aware, I have published the agricultural White Paper today, which will pave the way for a Wales agricultural Bill in the sixth Senedd term. That will have provisions in it that will give Welsh Ministers the legislative powers to regulate all aspects of sale and use of snares, and, clearly, that is something that could also be considered in that piece of legislation.

Caroline Jones AC: Minister, the use of snares is a barbaric act and has no place in modern cruelty-free Wales. The code of practice allows the immoral trade in fox fur to continue, and does nothing to stop immense suffering to target and non-target animals. The RSPCA regularly deals with badgers and pet cats that have spent days trapped in snares. Minister, do you agree with me that the code is unworkable and unpoliceable, and needs to be scrapped in favour of a total ban of this barbarism in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: [Inaudible.]—will have heard my answer to Vikki Howells and the possibility of bringing in further legislation within the agricultural Bill. But I do think that it is important that the code of practice remains there to promote best practice, and that stake snares, for instance, should only be used when other control methods are not available.

Flooding

Helen Mary Jones AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement regarding flooding in Mid and West Wales? OQ56056

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. Our national strategy sets out our approach to flood and coastal risk management and how we will tackle the growing risks associated with climate change. Our flood programme will invest over £3 million in the Mid and West Wales region this year, including £566,000 for emergency repairs to flood infrastructure.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to you, Minister, for that answer. This weekend, I visited residents and businesses at Capel Teilo Road, which is between Trimsaran and Kidwelly in Carmarthenshire. A relatively small number of properties are affected, but very seriously affected, sometimes going weeks without being able to get their vehicles in and out. It's a complex pattern, Minister, with tidal flooding issues, some issues relating to the proximity of a railway and the difficulty of the water clearing. I'm sure, Minister, that you would agree with me that, when a member of a public agency said to one of the families that their property was, and I quote, 'dispensable' and that nothing could be done, that wasn't an acceptable approach. I won't name the agency because, obviously, the individual could potentially be identified by that.
But, Minister, if I write to you and ask you to do so, will you reply to me, encouraging all of the agencies that are in play here—and that includes Dŵr Cymru, Natural Resources Wales—. It also includes, obviously, the local authority and the railways, because of the railway line. Will you encourage them to come together at the site, with me and the residents, so that we can talk through what possibilities there might be? I realise that investment has to go to where the biggest number of properties are protected, but is it not also true that, when people are affected again and again and again, they too deserve our consideration and, potentially, some investment?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely. You will be aware that our strategy is to protect homes and businesses and, therefore, people's lives, because we know that flooding is absolutely a devastating event. But it is not just about the large numbers, as you say. It's about individuals as well. Absolutely, I agree with you. Certainly, we saw the partnership working to which you refer very much at the fore in the February floods, particularly in the Rhondda, for instance. So, I would absolutely urge all of the organisations that you named to come together with you to see what we can do, and I'll be very happy to be part of that too.

Russell George AC: Minister, there are plans under way in Shropshire to develop a flood prevention scheme along the River Severn to protect Shrewsbury and surrounding areas from flooding. Now, I know that Councillor Lucy Roberts, who represents the Llandrinio ward, which is on the Welsh side of the England-Wales border, has been very keen to establish connections and also represent the views of residents on the Welsh side. If you are aware of this scheme, is the Welsh Government and NRW fully satisfied that these plans will not be detrimental to mid Wales and to my constituents as, of course, we are upstream in that regard? And if you're not aware of this particular scheme, I wonder would you ask your officials to appraise themselves, and yourself, of the scheme, and respond to us both to give us that assurance.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Russell George, for raising this with me. I'm not aware of the scheme; I will check with officials if they are. But, as you say, I will certainly ensure that I receive a briefing on it and will write to the Member in due course.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. We all know that the Government published its White Paper on agriculture this morning, and I look forward to reading that over the next few days. But, at first sight, I have to say that there isn't much difference or change from some of the consultation documents that we've previously seen. There are elements that we agree with—I think it is time for us to move towards models that pay for public goods—but you and everyone else will be aware that we disagree and continue to disagree on the need for some stability payment as part of the support available to the sector. But you pledged, of course, that you wouldn't bring proposals forward without having carried out a full impact assessment and thorough modelling of them, but I read in the White Paper, and I will quote:

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 'Further analytical work is being carried out to establish the economic impact of our proposals at the farm business, sector and regional levels. The results of this work will be important for assessing the potential impact of the scheme on rural communities.'

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, that tells me that you don't know what the impact of the proposals will be on those very family farms that you will rely on to deliver those public goods and the outcomes that we all want to see. So, how can you publish such a significant White Paper, which is so far reaching, when you clearly haven't done your homework?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Llyr Huws Gruffydd will be very well aware that this White Paper is the end of many discussions, many debates and two significant consultations, and we've now brought forward the White Paper, which I said, in an earlier answer, will pave the way to a Wales agricultural Bill in the sixth Senedd.
There is a great deal of evidence and analysis that will need to be looked at ahead of bringing forward the Bill. You'll be aware that Welsh Government officials have let a contract to engage an independent consortium to examine the effects of the proposals on the agricultural economy of Wales. It is a very complex piece of work. I think it's really important we get it right, we don't rush it, and I don't expect a final report on this to be received before the autumn of next year. There is no rush to do this. We have the temporary powers from the UK Government Agricultural Bill. What is important is we get it right, and there's a great deal of work that's been done in preparing this White Paper. We've got the environmental and rural affairs monitoring and modelling programme, we've established a stakeholder evidence group, so officials can engage with stakeholders, and, as I have said, and you have just alluded to, we won't take any final decisions on the nature of any future scheme until that economic analysis is completed.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, if there's no hurry, Minister, why are you bringing forward a White Paper before the group that you're establishing to look at making these assessments have actually concluded their work? You've contradicted yourself in that answer. And what work has already been done, which I know you reference in the report, of course, will be dated if not irrelevant come 1 January, because, at the end of the transition period, everything changes. We have no idea what access Welsh farmers will have to export markets, be it the EU or further afield. We have no idea what level of cheap imports may well be flooding into our domestic market, undermining and undercutting our producers here in Wales, and, of course, instigating that race to the bottom. And we still don't really know what level of EU replacement funding we'll receive in Wales; what we do know is that the UK Government has cut the funding that we'll receive next year. So, it really doesn't augur well in terms of you knowing what level of funding you will have to meet some of the ambitions that you have in your White Paper. So, surely, what we are proposing in any White Paper should be based on what we will come to know after the Brexit dust has settled, and not just publish a White Paper that is a bit of a hit-and-hope approach, in my book, when absolutely nothing is clear.

Lesley Griffiths AC: You are quite right that there's a huge amount of uncertainty at the current time, particularly in relation to funding. As you say, the UK Government have cut the agricultural funding by—we're £137 million short; we're still fighting to get that funding returned to us, but, clearly, funding is a significant issue. However, this is an opportunity. We know we need to bring forward an agricultural Bill very early in the sixth Senedd. This is a consultation, again. This consultation is open until 25 March. Nothing is set in stone and, as I say, no final decisions will be taken. We've engaged significantly over the past four years, since the European Union referendum. Officials have met with a wide range of stakeholders; I, myself, have met with a wide range of stakeholders. We've had many discussions in the development of the evidence base that this White Paper has been based on.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: And still there's no clarity on how your proposals will actually be implemented. You mentioned it: four years since the referendum, three years, I suppose, since this dialogue with the sector started in earnest. This is the third consultation that you will be engaging with the sector and wider society around, but, again, it's a lot of high-level aspirations, which we've already seen in 'Sustainable farming and our Land', the previous consultation, and 'Brexit and our land', the one before that. There's next to no operational detail, no information on what the proposals will mean on a farm level, no clarity on timescales, no detail on the transitional arrangements, no budgetary information either. So, I'm just wondering: what are you hoping to learn from this particular consultation that hasn't already become evident to you in your two previous consultations that you've undertaken? And, again, I'll come back to the point that you made that there's no hurry. And I agree that it's more important to get it right than to do it quickly, but is the next 12 weeks really the best time to engage the sector in a meaningful consultation? They're already grappling with the consequences of a global pandemic, which is decimating the food supply system globally, and Brexit hasn't hit yet. Give it a fortnight and the whole sector's going to be in absolute chaos dealing with the fallout of the end of the transition period, and you're expecting a meaningful consultation when the sector is actually in the throes of ensuring that they just survive. Surely the timing of this is all wrong.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely recognise that we are in a very difficult period of time, but that, unfortunately, I think, is going to last for a little while later. You will be very well aware that I committed to bring forward this White Paper before the end of the year, and I'm sure you would have been the first to criticise me if I hadn't done that. So, I have to say, I haven't heard from any quarters, apart from what you've just raised with me, about it being the wrong time to consult. Everybody has known this White Paper is coming before the end of the year. I think it was back—if it wasn't the summer, it was certainly the autumn that I promised to do that before the end of the calendar year. So, nobody will be surprised that we have brought this forward. The consultation is open to 25 March; I hope to hear as many views as possible on the White Paper. And I think stakeholders recognise that we're in a middle of a climate emergency as well, whilst, of course, we're in the middle of a pandemic. That climate emergency is here as well, and I know that the agricultural sector, in particular, feels they are part of the solution to that climate emergency, and I would be very keen to hear their views on how they will continue to respond to that.

Conservatives spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have to say, in looking forward to the publication of the White Paper today, I do have to echo and endorse some of the comments by my colleague Llyr Gruffydd. These White Paper proposals fall short of providing the framework required to meet the principles and ambitions that our Welsh farmers deserve. We've all known the result of the Brexit vote, and, on the quick reading that I've had a chance to do on this today, it's not too clear that some of the previous consultations have added any weight to that, in terms of you taking those forward.
Our farms are the cornerstone of our rural communities, and are essential job creators, who safeguard historic and sustainable land management practices for generations to come. Despite your White Paper running to 74 pages, I'm astounded that you've only referenced the term 'employment' three times, and have only given a single cursory nod to jobs in the farming sector. This undermines the immense value that our farms bring to rural communities and regional economies. So, Minister, will you review your proposals to fully recognise the importance of the farming sector as an integral employer in rural areas, and will you look to further emphasise the very real value of the food production by our farmers in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm astounded at Janet Finch-Saunders's analysis of the White Paper. Obviously, it's the Bill and then the Act that will provide that framework, but the whole purpose of having our own Wales agricultural bill—the first time we've had the opportunity; let's look at the opportunities from leaving the European Union. And this is a massive opportunity to have our own Welsh agricultural policy, absolutely tailored for Wales—a bespoke agricultural policy. We absolutely need to keep farmers on the land—absolutely. Without them, we wouldn't be able to deliver any of the outcomes that we seek to do. Sustainable food production is absolutely at the heart of this White Paper—not like England's. So, we are absolutely adamant that food production has to be a part. And if you look at 'Brexit and our land', that was one of the concerns of the agricultural sector, that food wasn't given enough prominence. That changed with the second consultation, in relation to 'Sustainable Farming and our Land', and it's absolutely at the heart of the White Paper, along with the environmental outcomes that our farmers are producing but not being rewarded for at the current time.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, but considering the time that has elapsed since your very first consultation, I am dismayed by the lack of substantive detail in this document, and such little acknowledgement of the time and energy that our farmers have put in to responding to you previously on many other consultations. And reading the document—albeit very quickly—today, it does not reflect the input that they've had. This proposal should stand as a once-in-a-generation opportunity. We're looking at a 15 to 20-year plan, to develop and introduce a comprehensive food and farming policy, ensuring food security, and promoting the sale and procurement of Welsh food for the domestic market. Instead, however, your White Paper is heavy on enforcement, mentioning regulations 79 times. I consider that a class insult to our farmers—a move that will only work to impact the competitiveness of our farms.
COVID-19 has highlighted the fragility of our supply chains, and just how important our farmers are to food production in Wales. Just remember how they came forward during the pandemic, and continue to do so. When people became very frightened and bothered about going into supermarkets, our farmers were there, with our butchers, delivering food where it was needed, and that cannot be overlooked. It is simply not a globally responsible position for this Government to pursue a policy that leads to the contraction of Welsh farming and food production, and that is the feeling so far. So, Minister, in this context, why does the White Paper mention food security only twice, with no apparent consideration of the need to maintain and enhance levels of food production in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, we had the first consultation back in 2018 and the second one last year, in 2019. Again, I'm surprised that you don't feel that there has been a change in the tone of language or the proposals that have come forward, because there clearly has. So, I would ask you to go back and look at the two previous consultations, just to see that.
Our proposal to introduce a sustainable farming scheme is to place a proper value on the environmental outcomes that our farmers produce. They don't get rewarded for that at the current time. Sustainable food production is absolutely at the heart of it also, and that was at the specific request of, certainly the first consultation we had, where we had over 12,000 responses. So, to say we haven't listened to people who took the time to respond, I think, is completely incorrect.
There are those who have called for a status quo, but I think, as the—. Certainly the first consultation, people were saying they wanted a status quo. But if you talk to the majority of farmers, they will say that the common agricultural policy has not equipped the sector to be resilient or to deal with the environmental challenges that, as I say, the climate emergency is really in the middle of. I absolutely agree with you that our agricultural sector, and our farmers, were at the fore, to ensure that we were all fed. Nobody went without food in Wales, and of course they were part of that.
So, this is a consultation again, so if anybody has any further ideas, obviously we hope to hear very much from them. We're going to work very closely with the industry and with our farmers to develop the detail of the scheme. And I've made it very clear that we won't make any changes until we can demonstrate that new scheme is adequately designed.
You mentioned procurement, and I absolutely agree with you that that is a further opportunity. And that food security that we're all concerned about, I'm certainly having discussions with my counterparts at the current time, because a 'no deal' exit from the European Union would not do anything to help our food security.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you again. Minister, in dealing with the national minimum standards for agriculture, your White Paper states:
'Further, more detailed, consultation on the scope of the National Minimum Standards will accompany this secondary legislation.'
So, there's a feeling that you are once again leaving the details until further down the road. Now, considering that you are intending to make these as broad as possible, consolidating regulations on nitrate vulnerable zones and animal health and welfare legislation into it, stakeholders have said that they believe the timing of the publication will make it harder for farmers to actively participate, and that they feel that this paper simply does not reflect their consistent level of engagement with you on previous consultations.
Just let me remind you that when our hardworking farmers do respond to consultations, a lot of their time and energy goes into that, so this document, and any Bill going forward, must reflect their views. So, having raised concerns with you about engagement before, can you give this Chamber some reassurances that adequate time will be given for farmers to scrutinise these proposals with a target date when this further clarity will be provided? Because, quite simply, as you've rightly pointed out, we're in the middle of COVID still, we're in the middle of a climate emergency, and with all the Brexit negotiations and preparations at the beginning part of the year, it's going to be very difficult—[Interruption.] I don't think the Minister needs any help, Joyce. [Interruption.]

Hold on, this isn't a conversation between the two of you. You carry on, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: There's going to be very little time for farmers, once again, to engage if they feel they're not being listened to. So, all I do is make a plea, again, after what's been a horrendous year for all of us, make a plea that you listen to the farmers and you make our food producers and our farmers the most integral part of any agricultural Bill going forward. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: JanetFinch-Saunders reminds us that we're in the middle of a perfect storm; I couldn't agree more with you on that. But I have always made the farmers and our food producers absolutely integral in all this. I've always listened to them. I've always engaged them. I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find a farmer that would say any different.
You referred to the national minimum standards in relation to regulations, and one of the first complaints I received when I came into this portfolio four years ago was that the regulations were too complex, there was not one place where those regulations were, they were in different parts of legislation. This is a proposal to bring everything together in one piece of legislation.Also, you've got the enforcement of agricultural regulation, which, really, is currently heavily focused on the CAP payment schemes. And outside of those schemes, it then really goes to criminal prosecution. It's a very big leap from that to criminal prosecution. I don't want to criminalise our farmers, and I think we need proportionate options for enforcing less serious offences. So, that is the plan with the national minimum standards. But, again, it's a 12-week consultation.
And one of the reasons—. Believe me, the team of officials that have worked on this, they were very, very involved at the beginning of the COVID-19 response for Welsh Government. They knew that I wanted to bring this White Paper forward by the end of the year: (1) I promised it, and (2) in order to have the full 12 weeks of consultation, and that's one of the reasons for bringing it forward now, and I pay tribute to the hard work they've done to enable that to happen.

Puppies

Joyce Watson AC: 3. What assessment has the Minister made regarding the upsurge in the sale of puppies during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ56048

Lesley Griffiths AC: People should think hard about the commitment involved in pet ownership. It is important potential owners of a new pet ensure that the animal is sourced responsibly. For this reason, we have relaunched our #PawsPreventProtect campaign and will continue to issue strong messaging on this in the future.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you. In the first month of lockdown, online searches for puppies and kittens increased by 120 per cent according to the Dogs Trust. And that upsurge in the sale of puppies and kittens, according to a report from Battersea Dogs Home, has resulted in a 94 per cent increase of legal imports from overseas to meet demand. Sadly, according to the charity, this spike is likely to indicate an increase in the illegal cross-border puppy and kitten smuggling trade as well. Many of them will be sold via third parties on online sites like Facebook and Gumtree, for example.
In October, the Welsh Government announced that they will be bringing forward legislation that will make the third-party sale of puppies and kittens illegal in Wales, and we call it Lucy's law. It is important legislation and it is hoped that it will eradicate the unscrupulous breeders that have little regard for animal welfare. So, Minister, are you able to give us a clear timetable for when you intend to implement what is commonly known as Lucy's law in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, as I think I mentioned to the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee last week—and the chief veterinary officer is really keen that I push this point—we're going beyond Lucy's law, and it is about third-party sales. So, it will be brought forward before the end of this parliamentary term. I can't give you an exact timeline, but, as I say, we've only got three, four months now to enable us to do this. And, despite all the other calls on the team's time, we are on track still with our third-party sales legislation.
You will have heard me say many times, Joyce, that the legislation on its own will not do everything we would want it to do, and that's why we've had the local authority dog breeding enforcement project too. We funded that and worked very closely with our local authorities. Llywydd, I would just like to remind people that we do, unfortunately, know that Christmas is traditionally a time for impulse purchases of puppies and kittens. I mentioned the #PawsPreventProtect social media campaign. We've relaunched that. We did that last year, ahead of Christmas, and we have relaunched that this week to remind people.

The Environment in Torfaen

Lynne Neagle AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's priorities for the environment in Torfaen for the remainder of this Senedd term? OQ56057

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government sets the priorities for the whole of Wales through the natural resources policy. The south-east Wales area statement, published by Natural Resources Wales, outlines the key challenges and opportunities to sustainably manage natural resources in the area, and that includes Torfaen.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister. SL Recycling Ltd has been operating a waste plant on the former Shanks incinerator site in a residential area of New Inn, in my constituency. They were granted a permit by NRW many months ago, despite the fact that the company is only now applying for planning permission from the local authority. Since they've begun operating, I've received a huge volume of complaints from local residents who are affected by noise nuisance and other matters such as odour. Those issues have had to be picked up by my hard-pressed local authority, because NRW are not able to be sufficiently responsive. Do you share my concern, Minister, about the obvious disconnect between the operation of NRW and my local authority? Will you raise this with NRW, with a view to ensuring that this disconnect does not continue in future? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you. I'm very concerned to hear this, and I certainly do share your concerns, because obviously planning and environmental permitting are complementary regimes. The planning permission determines if the development is an acceptable use of land, for instance, and it's absolutely right that the complaints went to the local authority in the first place, but I'll be certainly very happy to raise this with Natural Resources Wales at my regular monthly meetings, and then I will write to the Member to fully fulfil what your concerns are. Obviously, the issue of an environmental permit from NRW doesn't remove the requirement for a site to have the appropriate planning consent. So, I will ask NRW again to consult with the local authority and make sure that everything is absolutely in place.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Nearly 10 years ago, the Welsh Government set a target for planting 5,000 hectares of new woodland every year until 2030. However, in the last five years, the average figure for new woodland planted is only 300 hectares. Does the Minister agree that the Welsh Government's failure to meet its own target is hampering its ability to achieve its climate change aims? And what action will she take to encourage more trees to be planted in Torfaen and throughout Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You will have heard me say many times that we have certainly not planted enough trees and that's why we've brought forward several initiatives in the last 12 months, particularly the main one being the national forest, and that will create areas of new woodland to help us restore and maintain some of our irreplaceable ancient woodlands and also to ensure that we are planting more trees to help us mitigate climate change. Again, you will have heard my earlier answers around the agriculture White Paper, published today, and in there you will see the plan to plant more trees. But I absolutely have always said we need to work with our farmers, with our land managers, with NRW to ensure that we significantly increase the number of trees we are planting.

Animal Welfare

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of COVID-19 on animal welfare in Wales? OQ56041

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, we've issued guidance, working with the veterinary profession and existing companion animal welfare groups and have established our own farmed animal health and welfare group to specifically consider the impact of COVID-19 on animal welfare. Promoting high animal welfare standards remains a priority, despite the challenges we're all facing.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. During this COVID-19 pandemic, of course, we've seen an increase in demand for and the selling of puppies from various sources. Now, UK-based Google searches for puppies near where I live have increased more than six times and the number of licences issued for the commercial import of dogs more than doubled to 12,733 from June to August 2019 in the same three-month period this year. So, there is a serious concern that we are sitting on an animal welfare time bomb. It just beggars belief that import licences to bring dogs and puppies in have doubled in that way, when you see how many strays there are, how many unwanted dogs are waiting for forever homes. So, there could be a significant increase in the levels of abandonment as the further economic consequences of coronavirus are realised. So, it's fair to say our rescue centres must be prepared. However, fundraising opportunities are vastly reduced, and a survey of members of the Animal Welfare Network Wales showed 71 per cent of organisations calling for grants to be made available to rescues—that's a significant amount of people needing help to look after these dogs that find themselves in dire straits. So, will you consider stepping in at some point with some funding to assist the rescue centres, should they be able to prove that, despite the grants they may have received from any other sources, you might be able to help in some way? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that question. You raised this issue when I was in front of committee last Thursday, and both I and the chief veterinary officer said that we haven't seen an increase in abandonment. But maybe it's too early because, obviously, people perhaps are working from home, who have not gone back to work, and if they've had a puppy or a dog during that time, maybe it is a bit early to assess that, but we are keeping a close eye on that.
I think I also mentioned last week that the economic resilience fund, which is unique to Wales, supporting businesses, is available for some of the centres to which you referred to apply for. Clearly, it's something that we are keeping a very close eye on and, as the pandemic progresses and we do come out of this and we do see people returning to work et cetera, we will have to, as I say, keep a very close eye. But, certainly, we're not seeing the levels of abandonment that I think you referred to.

Mike Hedges AC: A number of people have bought pets for the first time because they're working from home due to COVID and they feel they've got time to look after them. Should training in animal welfare be offered to people purchasing their first pet, because, to be quite honest with you, if I actually bought a rabbit, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what to do with it?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think you make a very important point, and I wouldn't just say it's a first pet; I think anyone purchasing a pet, because, as you say, sometimes people buy rabbits or dogs et cetera. But we have got appropriate training available. I know that, in relation to dogs, there is the local authority dog breeding project. That's looking at improvements around socialisation plans that are being put into practice at licensed dog breeding premises, and I think that that's a first step, in training puppies to make sure that they are good family pets.

The Rural Economy

Michelle Brown AC: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of COVID-19 on the rural economy to date? OQ56054

Lesley Griffiths AC: The pandemic has impacted all sectors, and the rural economy is no different. In September, I committed £106 million to support the rural economy over the next three years. We are continually assessing the impacts of the pandemic and have responded decisively.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. The COVID pandemic has undoubtedly hit the rural economy hard and will continue to do so for a long time to come. One shameful feature of the rural economy in Wales is puppy farming. Ministers from other nations have had the determination to ban third-party puppy sales, and your latest statement on this issue is that a ban would be put in place before the end of this parliamentary term. However, you haven't said when and you haven't said why you are continuing to let the animal suffering go on in the meantime. The legislation involved is simple and could simply be copied and pasted from the other UK countries that have shown more care for animal welfare than this Government and have already brought in bans. Your Government has found time to give prisoners the vote but still hasn't found time to ban third-party sales that fuel the puppy farming industry. So, Minister, why is it that you're delaying the ban on this cruel business? Is it because, in the current economic climate, you're trying to protect the profits of any business that the COVID restrictions haven't sent to the wall, even if that business is making money out of suffering?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Michelle Brown wasn't listening to my earlier answer to Joyce Watson that we will be bringing forward the legislation, which goes beyond Lucy's law, by the end of this Senedd term, i.e. April. So, if she hasn't heard that, well, I've just repeated it for her.

Nick Ramsay AC: We know that mental health issues can often be hidden and disguised, particularly in deeper rural areas of Wales, often, sadly, until it's too late. The pandemic has now added another layer to many of the stresses and strains that are being faced by businesses and farmers, for instance, in the rural areas. What assessment have you made and what discussions have you had with the Minister responsible for dealing with mental health issues to assess the challenges that are facing businesses and farmers and people within the rural economy, and what support can the Welsh Government give to businesses in those areas at this difficult time to make sure that the burden is carried with those affected by the Government for as much as possible?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Nick Ramsay raises a very important point. It's about that balance of harms that the First Minister was referring to, and we've clearly seen poor mental health increase significantly during this pandemic. In relation to the rural sector and the agricultural sector, we have brought forward specific schemes to help our agricultural sector. We've brought forward a group of all the charities that work in this area. I attended several meetings, particularly over the summer and the spring, at the height of the pandemic, to make sure that those charities and organisations were working very closely together for farmers to access that funding. We also brought forward a scheme that was in production, but we brought it forward earlier, called FarmWell, where people can access really quick assistance, to work with organisations, in relation to better mental health. I've had discussions with my colleague Eluned Morgan and, prior to that, with the Minister for Health and Social Services around this to ensure that we are reaching as many people as possible, and I really pay tribute to the charities within the agricultural sector who have provided so much support over the past nine months.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: COVID-19 is clearly affecting our rural economy and will continue to do so for some time to come, but could I ask the Minister what assessment she has made of the additional impact of EU withdrawal on the rural economy and communities through the loss of agricultural support and rural development support, the loss of EU-funded social programmes and infrastructure programmes, like broadband, and without the UK Government making good on its promises to replace these funds in full and pass those funds back to Wales under our devolved powers and, I have to say, without Boris Johnson being able to deliver a so-called oven-ready Brexit trade deal, and letting down, therefore, badly, Welsh farmers? Would she agree with me that, regardless of which side of the Brexit argument you were originally on, there are points that everyone can now agree on: that the Brexit promises were false, and that the people of Wales were deceived by Boris Johnson and by assorted Faragist cheerleaders? They've let Wales down badly and they now need to own the mess that they've made.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely agree with the Member, and certainly the failure to provide full replacement agricultural funding is clearly something that makes me very angry—it should make us all very angry. And every Member of this Senedd should be standing up for Wales to ensure we get that funding back to support our agricultural sector.Wales currently benefits from over £700 million from our participation in a range of EU programmes, and the vast majority of those do absolutely support our rural economy and society. We will continue to fight for that funding, but I have to say the UK Government have betrayed our rural Wales.

Question 7 [OQ56031] is withdrawn. Question 8, Rhianon Passmore.

Fly-tipping

Rhianon Passmore AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government undertaking to address fly-tipping in remote rural locations in Islwyn? OQ56061

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Welsh Government funds the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme, which is led by Natural Resources Wales. The programme continues to support Caerphilly County Borough Council in tackling fly-tipping. This has included provision of surveillance equipment, signage and training. Work is ongoing to identify solutions to stop fly-tipping on common land in this region.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Fly-tipping costs Caerphilly County Borough Council hundreds of thousands of pounds, with the majority of rubbish being dumped in areas of open land, such as the historic Twmbarlwm in my constituency of Islwyn. Not only is there a financial cost to pay, but there is untold cost to the beautiful natural landscapes of Islwyn. Minister, earlier this year the Welsh Government relaunched its duty of care campaign to encourage people to help stop fly-tipping. So, how can the Welsh Government aid and empower Caerphilly County Borough Council and other local authorities to help combat the scourge of fly-tipping?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Rhianon Passmore raises a really important point. This part of Welsh Government has recently come back into my portfolio, and I've taken a keen interest in it because I think, certainly over the course of the pandemic, we have seen an increase in fly-tipping that we would not want to see. So, we do continue to work closely with all local authorities so that we can support them in any measures they bring forward to prevent and investigate fly-tipping incidents.
I think the campaign to which you referred, the Duty of Care campaign, has been well received. There's a communication toolkit, for instance, which can be used by all partner organisations and that really does encourage householders to dispose of their waste and recycling responsibly. We've also recently awarded funding via the rural communities rural development programme for the common collaboration project at the commons that are partly located, I think, in your constituency, but certainly within Caerphilly County Borough Council. And part of that project will focus on tackling landscape crime, and that includes a Fly-tipping Action Wales officer working closely with the commoners association and Caerphilly council to tackle fly-tipping.

Land Contamination

Delyth Jewell AC: 9. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to prevent land contamination in South Wales East? OQ56058

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Local authorities in South Wales East and Natural Resources Wales have responsibility for preventing land contamination through the planning regime, industrial regulation or implementing contaminated land legislation. We previously provided support through the contaminated land capital fund. We also fund land contamination training for local authorities and NRW.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. I've written to you on a number of occasions about the activities of the Bryn Group near Gelligaer, who have contaminated land by putting shredded plastic through the soil and who appear to have been spreading grass seed to cover that up. Now, Caerphilly council and NRW have said that there's no problem with the site, despite all the evidence that I and others have sent through video footage and photographs. I, myself, have walked the bund for two hours and can testify to how extensive and devastating the contamination is. In response to my most recent letter, Minister, you've told me that you'll be asking NRW to look into this matter again, but you've said that you don't see the need for an independent investigation. Could I please plead with you, Minister, to reconsider that decision, to keep the door open to conducting your own investigation of the contamination before all the evidence is covered up deep in the soil as a problem for future generations to deal with? I've told you before that I'm concerned the plastic could be entering the food chain through silage. This is not a problem that's going to go away, so please can you give me your assurance, and your assurance for the residents living nearby, that you'll take this extremely seriously?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can reassure the Member that I do take it very seriously. I have raised it with NRW. I can't remember off the top of my head if they've come back to me on that, but I will certainly chase that up when I get back to the office and write again to the Member.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

The next item is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government, and the first question is from Siân Gwenllian.

Short-term Holiday Lets

Siân Gwenllian AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the regulation of short-term holiday lets? OQ56042

Julie James AC: As the Member will be aware, this is one of a number of issues being considered by the cross-party working group, and also being considered by officials, linked to concerns around second homes in some communities. We will be updating the cross-party group in the new year.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Gwynedd Council has published a new housing scheme for the county with a budget of almost £80 million. The purpose of the scheme is to respond to the increasing crisis that there is in terms of housing in Gwynedd, placing the pressure on homes for local people, people who are in need, and investment in the local housing stock for the future. But as another step to respond to the crisis, Plaid Cymru wants to see every holiday unit in the short term receiving a licence before being available to let, ensuring planning permission in some areas. Scotland is about to have those powers through transferring them to the local authorities. Do you agree with me that we need a similar scheme here in Wales to prevent the loss of more of the housing stock from local hands? Gwynedd Council has found that 92 per cent of people in Abersoch have been priced out of the market.

Julie James AC: You'll know that we're going to be monitoring the effects of changes made to primary legislation in Scotland through the Planning (Scotland) Act 2019, which does require the registration of all short-term lets and allows a planning authority to designate all or part of an area as a short-term let control area. In designated areas—as I'm sure you're aware—the use of the dwelling house there for providing short-term lets would be a material change of use. But we understand the processes relating to these changes are not fully effected until 2024, and so not a quick fix by any means.
I was also very aware that Gwynedd Council's scrutiny committee were scheduled to meet on 10 December to look at a research paper, which you've just referenced—I think that's the paper you've just referenced, 'Managing the use of dwellings as holiday homes'—and we're very keen to work with them on the recommendations that they brought forward, but that for the most part require Welsh Government rather than the local authority to do things, all of which include some kind of primary legislation. But we're very happy to look at that as part of the cross-party working group as well.
I'm very happy to look with Gwynedd at reviewing a number of other issues that the local authority could do and we're keen to take forward what can be done without the use of primary legislation. Siân will be aware—as well as all other Members of the Senedd—of the difficulty of getting any legislation through in this Senedd term now as a result of pressures on resourcing as a result of COVID-19, Brexit and the shortness of the timescale. But I'm very happy to look with the cross-party group at the recommendations of the report in Gwynedd. I'm as anxious as she is to do something about the increasing difficulties of parts of Wales where—you know, they're very beautiful, aren't they? So, more and more people want to come and either live there or stay there on a longer-term basis.
Having said that, of course we want to ensure that the tourism industry, which is very, very important to Wales, is also resilient and sustainable, especially after the battering they've all had this year. So, it is a question of balance as always, but I absolutely accept that Gwynedd in particular has a real problem with the numbers of people who come into the county looking for lovely holidays.

Veterans

Jayne Bryant AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on support for veterans in Wales? OQ56055

Hannah Blythyn AC: We value and continue to provide a range of support to our armed forces community. Our armed forces annual report, laid before the Senedd on 30 September 2020, sets out in detail the comprehensive support we provide to veterans in Wales.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Minister. Newport Veterans Hub is a social support group that aims to bring veterans out of isolation and give them a place to socialise and make new friends. As well as offering support and activities for veterans and their families, including a free meal delivery service for those suffering with ill health, they link up with other local and national organisations to ensure their members can access the services that they need. They're really keen that the hub supports veterans and their families as well. They have recently linked up with Dragons Rugby and their mission is to make Newport one of the best places for supporting veterans in the UK.
Speaking with some of the veterans when I visited the Thursday drop-in, the work that they're doing is phenomenal, and sadly very necessary. We're all aware of the difficulties faced by servicemen and women when they return from active service, and while warm words are welcome, veterans and their families want and need to see support in practical ways. The support offered by the hub is tailored to the needs of the users, and is greatly appreciated. The hub is a charitable organisation that relies on donations, so would the Minister look closely at the excellent work of Newport Veterans Hub and ensure that the Welsh Government is doing all that it can to support our veterans and their families in our communities?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Jayne Bryant for sharing her recent visit and the excellent and very valued work that the Newport Veterans Hub does? You mentioned the importance of working in partnership as well, and that peer-led support that we know makes a big difference, and is a way that we can actually do all that we can and need to do to support those who've served and our veterans in Wales. One of the things I'd say is that we're very much committed to supporting and building on that support for those who've served in Wales, and actually the scoping exercise that took place last year to identify those areas where we perhaps might need to build on and strengthen support—I know that the Newport Veterans Hub participated in that, and also they actually work closely and are supported by the Welsh Government-funded armed forces liaison officers. But I'm very happy to continue the conversation with the Member if she'd like to write to me about the work of the hub, to see how actually we can make sure they're well aligned with the work we're doing right across Government, and the armed forces expert group as well.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. I too would like to extend my thanks and congratulations to the Newport Veterans Hub. They do fantastic work. Charities supporting veterans have been hard hit by this coronavirus pandemic, and I'm thinking of the poppy appeal particularly during the firebreak. In view of this, what additional specific and targeted support will the Minister provide for veterans in Wales who may have been adversely impacted by the loss of funding during this time?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for her question as well, and add to the appreciation that we all recognise for organisations like the Newport Veterans Hub. Like you say, like many organisations it's faced difficult and very different times as a consequence of the coronavirus pandemic. I've been in close contact with the Royal British Legion, particularly ahead of the poppy appeal, to make sure that we were working with them as a Government to support their work, albeit in very different circumstances, and challenging circumstances, for the remembrance period of 2020. It was obviously very different to what it was in previous years. We'll continue to work very closely with those charities and other organisations to build on the support that's already there. This is an ongoing situation that we review, but if you haven't done so already, I'd urge you to take a look at the annual report, which looks at the support we provide and how we aim to build on that. But I'd really like to place on record today that this Government is absolutely, wholeheartedly committed to working in partnership across Government and with local authority and third sector partners to make sure we can do all we can to support our veterans in Wales. Whilst we might not have responsibility for defence, we absolutely are there to support our veterans in a range of areas from health to housing to education and so on, and their families as well.

Caroline Jones AC: Porthcawl Veterans Hub and the many volunteers there give so much support to veterans, and without this support, many of them would be lost. But Minister, the pandemic has highlighted the fact that we as a nation are still failing our ex-servicemen and women, and veterans are still struggling to get the support they need and deserve, and far too many veterans have now been highlighted as still sleeping rough or sofa surfing, despite a commitment from both the UK and Welsh Governments. Minister, do you agree with me that we must do much more for these heroes who regularly put their lives on the line for us, and will you commit to finding accommodation for every single one of the veterans in Wales who so desperately need it? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Thank you, Caroline Jones. You again highlight the excellent work of the many hubs and organisations that are supporting our veterans and working in partnership in communities right across the country. We're very much committed to building on that support. As I said, our scoping exercise that took place last year was aimed at perhaps identifying where some things could be better aligned, and where those gaps were in support. They worked with a number of hubs and organisations that work closely with veterans, and with veterans themselves, in terms of actually identifying how we can build on that support in the areas that we do have responsibility for within Wales.
As part of that veterans scoping work, we are going to be updating the housing pathway that's already in place, working with the sector both in terms of the housing sector and those who support veterans, to ensure that housing providers are fully aware of it and making sure it's being fully engaged. Alongside that, we'll also make sure that our housing guidance is reviewed and updated for providers to make sure that the needs of our armed forces are being considered and, indeed, put front and centre as we take that work forward. Because I couldn't agree more with the Member, and other Members who've raised support for our veterans in the Senedd today, that we are absolutely committed and we do owe that debt of gratitude to those who served and those who continue to serve, to ensure that that support and guidance is there in communities right across the country.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. COVID has shown us just how important it is to properly fund services that take pressure away from statutory services. Services funded by the housing support grant play a vital role in preventing homelessness and reducing costs, particularly to health and social services. Homelessness and housing support workers have been at the forefront of the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, having helped over 4,000 people receive emergency accommodation and support, as well as continuing to support thousands of others to avoid homelessness. In order for this to be sustained, there needs to be a large increase in the housing support grant in the Welsh Government's budget, taking account of the fact there has been no inflationary increase in this grant for 10 years. Are you able to tell us whether this will happen?

Julie James AC: I thank Mark Isherwood for the question and the acknowledgement of the incredibly hard work that's been done across homelessness services by statutory services, by voluntary and third sector services. I'm always happy to have another opportunity to pay tribute to the extremely hard work, the fortitude and sheer resilience of the service. My tribute to the people at the front end of that service is absolutely heartfelt, because what we've managed to achieve in Wales in that period of time is just extraordinary. As he said, we now have over 4,000 people who've been housed through phase 1 of the homelessness service.
And absolutely, of course, it's not just about housing people in terms of four walls and a roof; it's about the support services that go with that, all the support services necessary to sustain somebody in that tenancy. So, I absolutely am incredibly grateful to all of the services and the umbrella organisations. Cymorth, in particular, has been extremely supportive all the way through in helping sustain that. Mark Isherwood will not be surprised to find that, however, I am not going to pre-empt the Welsh Government budget, which he knows will be published in draft on 21 December, and he wouldn't expect me to do so.

Mark Isherwood AC: In your statement of 23 November, you accepted in principle the recommendations in the third and final report of the homelessness action group, including taking forward earlier intervention and preventative activity so that people do not become homeless in the first place. Evidence shows that nearly 50 per cent of single homeless people first became homeless before the age of 21, highlighting the need for earlier intervention and preventative activity focused on youth homelessness to significantly reduce the number of homeless people overall. The homelessness action group's report makes it clear that an increase in the housing support grant is needed in order to set Wales on a path to end homelessness. Next week's budget is therefore an opportunity to turn that into reality. Front-line homelessness and housing support staff have been exceptional during this pandemic, but we know that reductions in real-term budgets mean that they are in desperate need of extra funding to ensure they get the recognition and the support they need. Given that the housing support grant now goes to local authorities for distribution, what assurance at all can you provide that they will receive an increase at local authority level in the grant, and will you encourage local authorities to commission services that provide this key recognition and support for staff working in such challenging circumstances?

Julie James AC: As I said, Mark Isherwood, I'm not going to be pre-empting the budget statement that my colleague, Rebecca Evans, will make next week, or the local government settlement announcement, which I will make the day after that, for obvious reasons. However, I'm really grateful for your acknowledgement of the incredible hard work that the sector has put in. I think we should be really proud of Wales. It's in stark contrast to what has happened across the border, of course, where homelessness services have started to slide back. We, unfortunately, have seen some small slippage of people back onto the streets, but it's very, very minor compared to the numbers of people that we've been working with, and I can assure Members of the Senedd that every single one of the people that we know have slipped back onto the streets is in receipt of assertive outreach services, so we know who they are and we're working with them to get them back into services as soon as possible.
I will take this opportunity, Llywydd, to just correct something that Caroline Jones said about the number of veterans sleeping out. The veterans pathway is working very well in Wales, and we do not have large numbers of veterans back on the streets, counter to what the Member said in her previous question.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, I will emphasise the questions I've raised with you were raised with me by the sector, who deserve the full praise that we've both given them, but also are desperately worried that this year's budget won't repeat previous years' and that they won't get the uplift they need, given the fantastic job they've done and the essential role they play.
If I may now finish by moving to the housing market more broadly, reflecting concern raised with me by estate agency businesses in Wales working in our cross-border regions, following today's announcement that Wales will go into a level 4 lockdown—the highest possible—from 28 December, with non-essential shops in Wales to close at the end of trading on Christmas Eve. As they state, the housing market itself is buoyant. Consumers are anxious to secure completion before the end of the land transaction tax holiday on 31 March, yet estate agents in Wales operating in the border towns will once again be disadvantaged, with competitor agents in England being open. As they also state, estate agents are COVID-secure, and the housing market has remained open next door in England throughout lockdowns and tier 3 restrictions there. So, they need to know: what scientific evidence to close the housing market does the Welsh Government have that England doesn't?

Julie James AC: Thank you for that question, Mark Isherwood. Obviously, we face one of the most dire situations in terms of the pandemic that we have faced so far. The numbers are truly horrifying, and going up in every area of Wales bar Ynys Môn. I have, only today, met with all of the local authority leaders and chief executives, and they are as one in thinking that we should do something about these figures before our health service is unable to cope. So, although my heart goes out to anyone who is trying to move in these circumstances, and of course we've got to balance harms against economic harms to the industry and so on, in the end we are in the middle of a global pandemic, and Wales's figures are nothing to be sanguine about. So, I'm afraid that we must put the public health first. I will, however, be working with the industry to try and keep as much of it open as possible. For obvious reasons, we would not want people to be viewing houses where somebody is in residence and so on, but I'm sure we will be able to work with the industry to make sure that at least some parts of the market stay open.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Lywydd. Minister, over the past 20 years, the number of homes in Wales privately rented has more than doubled. Although there was a small decline over recent years, it's still true to say that over 200,000 homes are rented by private landlords, and, as a percentage term, this was the only tenure that had increased over that period. Homes owned by the person living in the home and social housing have both declined over the same period. Is this a trend that you'd like to see increasing over the next 20 years?

Julie James AC: No. Very much no, Delyth. You'll be aware, from the many conversations that we've had that we'd very much—. Although the private rented sector has its place to play in terms of accommodation, and we're very grateful to the very many good landlords we have across Wales for providing good homes for people, nevertheless, we'd very much like to see an increase, in particular in houses for social rent. As a result of the cap being removed from the housing revenue accounts only a few short years ago, we've worked really, really hard with councils and RSLs across Wales to ramp up the building of homes for social rent in particular. I'm really pleased that we've made the target—the 20,000 affordable homes target—but it's the social rent part of that that's most needed. And you'll know from the long conversations we have, and I know that we share the ambition, that the way to do—you know, we need to ramp that up as fast as possible. So, we've been working very hard, through our innovative housing programme, as well as just through our normal building routes, to ramp up builds by both our registered social landlords and our stock-holding councils to get as many social homes built and into the market as possible. And, of course, we have a number of schemes aimed at taking in private rented accommodation into the social housing market, either on a five-year rolling basis, or indeed, we've allowed councils to buy them where that's appropriate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. I know that we are agreed on a number of these areas. I think, indeed, that there is a general consensus that we need to reverse that trend that I've just set out with the need, as you've said, for more social housing and more support for young people to escape from renting—for some people, they choose to rent, but some people are forced into it and we need to ensure that people can have alternatives.
Although we've seen a small decline in the number of homes privately rented since the introduction of the requirement to register as a landlord, there's been nothing like the exodus from the sector that was threatened when Governments started to talk about putting this sector under appropriate regulation. So, could I ask whether the Government will strengthen the regulations in that sector, as many would argue that we need to strengthen the quality and security of tenancy for tenants? After all, people shouldn't just have assurances over the Christmas period alone.

Julie James AC: Absolutely, Delyth; I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons that we passed, in this Welsh Parliament, the Renting Homes (Wales) Act back in 2016 was to do exactly that—to change the balance, really, between tenants and landlords in the private rented sector and give people much more security of tenure. You'll know that we're looking at the Renting Homes (Amendment) (Wales) Bill at the moment to improve, once again, on that Act, as four years have gone by and we're very happy, always, to look at improvements.
Unfortunately, because of COVID-19, we've not been able to implement the Renting Homes (Wales) Act with the speed that we'd like. I've been very keen to see all parties in this Senedd commit to doing that in election manifestos so that whoever makes up the Government after May would be committed to bringing that Act into force as soon as it can be managed. There are a number of statutory instruments that still need to be completed and a number of pieces of work with Rent Smart Wales and the landlords associations and so on that need to be completed for a smooth transition. But we've solved many of the issues that we had that stopped us from implementing it, and so, it's a matter of some frustration to me that we haven't been able to do that as a result of the pandemic.
I'm really proud of having done that in Wales, and I would reiterate your point, actually: we're always being told by a very small minority of landlords that any change we make will see a mass exodus from the market, and so on. None of the figures ever bear that out. And the good landlords know that we aren't doing anything that they will have any problem with; it's only rogue landlords who have anything to fear from this.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. You mentioned in your previous answer about COVID-19 and the effect that that's had on so many aspects of the housing market. Now, it's clear that the restrictions that have been in place this year have been experienced differently by different groups of people. We've spoken about this many times. But, the difference reflects wider inequalities in our society. It's clear, for example, that people living in crowded accommodation without access to green and blue space will be more likely to experience longer term problems than people who have been able to shelter in large houses with gardens. Given this, can I ask you, Minister: will you be looking at expanding green and blue space requirements for new developments in planning? And, finally, will you be looking at how you could retrospectively improve access to those spaces for existing estates, for example, by increasingprotections for those spaces against new developments and ensuring that we regard access to these green and blue spaces as a right?

Julie James AC: Yes, Delyth, I'm really interested in doing that. So, there are some short-term things that we have learned in the course of the COVID-19 pandemic. So, for example, even at level 4, we are asking our local authorities to work very hard to make sure that parks and playgrounds stay open where it's safe for them to do so, and they have the staffing that makes that possible. We know that not everywhere in Wales, because of a number of local issues—. It will not be possible to keep every park and playground open, but we've asked them to keep them open where at all possible, so that, particularly, people in built-up urban areas have the parks that ought to be available still available to them. I know that local authorities have very much taken that on board in learning from the earlier parts of the pandemic.
Also, one of the things that I'm very sad about is that we lost the ability to put Part L of the building regs into effect in this Senedd term. Again, there was cross-party agreement. I think that David Melding was the spokesperson on the Conservative benches at that time, but there was a lot of agreement between yourself, me and him about what was necessary. And, of course, that is all about space, standards, and access to good quality environment. Again, I don't think it's controversial. I very much hope that we'll be able to do that—that all the major parties, anyway, in the Senedd will be able to include that as part of their manifesto commitments, so that we can do that as speedily as possible once we are through the pandemic and we have some legislative space to do so.
In the meantime, of course, we are very keen that people understand that they do need to get outside, even in built-up urban areas where it's difficult. You will be aware of the medical advice to take vitamin D supplements if that's not possible. I would like to reiterate that advice, given the opportunity to do so.

The National Development Framework

Russell George AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the implementation of the national development framework in mid Wales? OQ56033

Julie James AC: I will, with pleasure. We will commence implementation of 'Future Wales' when it is published in February, to ensure that it has positive impacts on well-being, prosperity and decarbonisation. In mid Wales, progress on strategic planning will take an active role in delivering progress towards 'Future Wales' outcomes.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. Beyond the merits and drawbacks of onshore wind energy, which I think is probably more a matter for your ministerial colleague, the implementation of the national development framework has significant ramifications from my perspective, in terms of the balance of power between central and local government—concerns that I have got long-held views on. You would recall, perhaps, in June 2011, just after you and I were first elected to this place, there were many thousands of people coming from mid Wales on dozens of buses to protest then about the damage—as they saw it, and I saw it too—to swathes of mid-Wales countryside.
In England, it is local councils and communities that have the final say on these kinds of developments, and the lack of adequate scrutiny underscores my original fears about the top-down nature of the national development framework, which ultimately gives those powers to Ministers here for themselves. What can you say to allay the fears of local communities who do feel that the NDF does not adequately reflect local democracy decisions?

Julie James AC: So, I think that's a complete misunderstanding of a plan-led system that we have here in Wales. I understand, Russell George, that you are trying to put a good spin on what's happening in England, but I would take the exact opposite view, in fact. The deregulation that's being proposed in England takes away all of the community involvement in the planning process. In fact, once the designation has been made, you can pretty much build anything you like in the zones designated for development. I think that the recent developments politically over the border, with the protests of a number of Conservative MPs from shire counties about that exact point would underline the point I'm making.
Here in Wales, we have a plan-led system. The plans are extensively consulted upon, and they are subject to all the scrutiny processes of this place and of the democratic consultation process. Then, it is a national spatial strategy for 20 years. We have also, of course, put in place the regional arrangements that will allow regions to come forward with their regional development plans, aligned with the national development framework, or 'Future Wales' as we want it called, and of course with 'Planning Policy Wales'. I've made the point a number of times in this Chamber that none of these documents is a stand-alone document. They have to be read as a suite of documents across the piece. 'Planning Policy Wales' is also widely consulted on, and of course is the basis on which local authorities make their local development plans.
So, what we will have—and I've acknowledged many times that we started, perhaps, in the wrong place, at the bottom end—. It would have been much better to start at the top end. But we've got the national spatial strategy nearly there. It's still going through its Senedd scrutiny processes, and I've received very helpful recommendations from the Senedd committees on the latest version of the plan, and we'll be considering those before we publish the final version in February. This will allow the regions to come forward with their regional strategic plans, and of course they will be widely consulted on locally as well, and your constituents will have an enormous number of opportunities to feed into those regional plans for their region, because, of course, we don't want the regions of Wales to all look exactly the same; we want them to have that local flavour, and that local input. And then, of course, they translate into the local development plans, where local people have a big say.
Also, you and I sat on that committee together, and looked at the Planning (Wales) Act 2015. And you'll remember that I was vehemently opposed to the removal of the village green safeguards, and we had a number of spirited discussions about it, and I'm very pleased to say the planning Act in Wales upheld safeguards for village greens. So, you cannot put that into the local development framework and then apply for planning permission. At this point in time, you can still claim village green status for that. Delyth Jewell raised, didn't she, the access to green spaces with me. My own view is that often the first time that the people locally, who use the village green, understand there's a development proposal for it is when the signs go up on the local lamp posts. So, saying that they should have known that when the local development plan was put in place I thought was disingenuous. So, I'm personally quite proud of the fact that our committee made that recommendation and the Government held to it.

Public Engagement in Local Politics

Michelle Brown AC: 4. What assessment has the Minister made of the role that the Welsh Government can play in improving public engagement in local politics? OQ56053

Julie James AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is already playing a significant role in improving public engagement in politics. Through legislation, we have extended the voting franchise and made provisions to reform public participation in local democracy. And in support of this, our forthcoming communications campaign will encourage citizens to engage with politics through participation.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. And, yes, you have put through a number of significant changes to the local elections system, some of which you've actually mentioned today. But there has been an opportunity missed, though, that would have increased engagement from the wider electorate, which is a more proportional electoral system for local councils. Now, I know that your legislation allows for local authorities to adopt the single transferrable vote model, but it doesn't compel them to, and it doesn't even compel them to ask their electorate if they would like that system in place. I don't think any council in Wales is going to adopt a more proportional system voluntarily, because, basically, those in power are always very reluctant to change the voting system that got them there, for fear it will deliver different results next time. So, really, the inclusion of the option to hold an STV election is pretty meaningless, isn't it? Without making it mandatory, it looks like you're cynically using the democratic system to protect your friends in the council chamber, who no doubt deliver leaflets and knock on doors for you in return. So, Minister, will you consider options to force local councils to use a more proportional electoral model, or will voters be stuck in perpetuity with the current system?

Julie James AC: Well, Michelle Brown, I completely refute the premise that you base your question on. I don't think using the word 'compel' in a conversation about public participation does you or anybody else any favours. So, I do not agree with compelling local authorities to do things—they are themselves democratically elected institutions. What our Act does is empower local authorities to make their own decisions, where they wish to do so. And of course, the Bill also increases a large number of public participation methodologies, which will allow them to consult widely and involve and include their local residents.
We're also, of course, very involved in our increasing diversity in democracy schemes. And the Bill also sets out a number of things that we think will enable more people to come forward to stand at election for local councillors, including remote access to learning, to meetings, remote access to officials, and of course strengthened guidance on assistance for local councillors in carrying out their case load and local roles.

Suzy Davies AC: I think all of us in our time as elected Members will have been bowled over by community campaigns instigated by individuals coming together to fight either for or against something that matters profoundly to them. Loads in South Wales West, but just one—'Save Our Fields in Brackla is campaigning currently to retain the only extensive green space in this settlement, which is home to around a quarter of Bridgend's population. It's a perfect example. Now, that's engagement in local politics as well, and exercised frequently in a way that exposes problems with competing Government policy aims. And not all campaigners want to stand for election themselves, of course, but what might Welsh Government do in order to ensure that consultations are meaningful and properly promoted, and that people like Save Our Fields in Brackla feel that their voice really matters, that it's taken seriously?

Julie James AC: Yes, and I completely agree with Suzy Davies that many people first have their first taste of politics—small 'p'—because they campaign against the closure of a local playing field or the opening of something they don't like locally, and they get a sense for how their voice can be heard coming together as a community. So, I think we share a common like, if you like, of that kind of community action, which I am very keen on facilitating, if that's the right word.
So, each local authority has to set out a public participation strategy to set out clearly how they promote awareness of the work of the council and how its decisions impact on people's lives, and they also explain how individuals can access decisions and make representations to the council, and, importantly, how they can make those views known in good time so that they impact the decision that they're concerned about. As I said in answer to a previous question, that isn't the point in time that a sign goes up on the local lamp post saying that you've got only a few days to make representations; it is about awareness, more broadly, of how you can get your voice heard. And so each local authority will be under a duty to promote that public participation scheme as widely as possible and to give access, both in person—so you can attend in person, once we're over the COVID regulations of course—but also electronic access, phone access and so on, in order to allow people to get their voice heard, and we expect them to have those strategies in place and report annually on them for the scrutiny of both their own councils and of the Senedd.

Mike Hedges AC: The one area where the public get engaged is planning applications. The big problem is that unpopular planning applications, such as houses of multiple occupation over the limits set by supplementary planning guidance are refused by the council but allowed by planning inspectors. Does the Minister agree that ending planning inspectors overruling councils' planning conditions and making failed applicants go to judicial review instead is the best way of improving public engagement and getting the confidence of the public?

Julie James AC: Well, Mike Hedges will know that he and I have had a couple of sparring matches on this point over a large number of years. So, he knows I don't agree with him on that, which I'm sorry to say. Applicants can appeal against refusal of permission, where an independent inspector then checks the decision of the local planning authority against local and national planning policies and any other material consideration raised. I absolutely recognise the point about local plans, local strategic areas, HMO strategy areas and so on—there are a number of them—strategic design orders and so on.
We have got a good relationship with all of our local authorities in Wales, and where I've been asked to do so—and I'm very happy to invite such a request from any other local authority—the planning inspectors have been able to work with officers from those authorities to understand what the evidential requirements are in order to defend an appeal, in order to make the decision in the first place, and, indeed, in order to strengthen their particular design orders or HMO restraint orders, or whatever it is they're doing, so that they don't get overturned on appeal. And, in fact, actually, we've produced statistics, because there is a perception that more get turned over on appeal than not, and we've produced statistics that show that that's not so.

Innovative Housing Solutions

Joyce Watson AC: 5. What is the Welsh Government doing to support innovative housing solutions in Wales? OQ56049

Julie James AC: Thank you, Joyce. I committed in November to support of £35 million of investment to deliver 470 new innovative affordable homes, which adds to the 1,400 homes already funded under the innovative housing programme to date. That takes the total support over the last four years to over £125 million.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to very much welcome the Welsh Government's approach to that innovative housing programme, which this year has focused its funding on modern methods of construction. You've already said that £35 million of investment will go to local companies, and I think it's worth repeating that it's local companies and their supply chains, and that's a welcome boost during these uncertain times. And I'm even more pleased that a number of those are bringing much-needed work into my region during what is, undoubtedly, a challenging time.
Minister, have you any idea how many training and apprenticeship opportunities you anticipate will be created with this programme, and, clearly, if you can't give me an exact answer now, I look forward to one in the near future.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Joyce. I know of your passion for getting apprentices into the construction industry and, in particular, a more diverse group of apprentices, including your championing of women in construction for many years. You'll know I share your enthusiasm to do that.
I'm really pleased that the innovative housing programme has placed Wales at the vanguard of housing innovation and creativity within the UK. We're investing £45 million into the modular housing industry in Wales this year alone, which generates potentially hundreds of new local jobs and training opportunities with Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises and their local supply chains. Modern methods of construction—and I know you know this already—is a new industry that shows itselfable to attract an increasingly diverse workforce, including encouraging more women and younger entrants into construction.It's new and better social housing, but it kick starts a whole new industry that plays an important role in the economic green recovery.
So, we expect that the materials and components used in this next generation of MMC homes will have a Welsh-first approach and preference is shown towards materials and labourso more—ah, got my tongue in a twist—materials and labour sourced locally within Wales, before seeking alternatives from the wider global economy. And we've been working really hard with the MMC providers through the innovative housing programme to both maximise the Welsh supply chain and the number of jobs and training opportunities that that supply chain generates locally as a result, so that the homes built locally will be built by local people for local people.

Housing Priorities for Preseli Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 6. What are the Welsh Government's housing priorities for Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ56025

Julie James AC: Thank you, Paul. We have been consistent in our message that social housing is our top priority. Our aim is to build better social homes, more of them, and more quickly. I am really proud of our record £2 billion investment in housing to support our delivery of over 20,000 affordable additional homes in this Assembly term—sorry, Senedd term; I beg your pardon.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. Now, recent figures tell us that poor housing costs the Welsh NHS around £95 million per year in the first five years of treatment charges and costs Welsh society over £1 billion a year. Now, we can't afford to lose sight of that as, clearly, investing in good quality housing demonstrates there is a proven return on investment in health benefits. Therefore, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to improve energy efficiency in its housing projects going forward, and what other measures is the Welsh Government taking to address the health costs of poor housing in Wales, and especially in Pembrokeshire?

Julie James AC: Absolutely, Paul. I completely agree that good housing is the bedrock of good health and a good life. We absolutely agree with that. In Pembrokeshire, the local authority has received £6.397 million-worth of social housing grant, and £1.142 million of housing finance grant for affordable housing schemes. That includes £2.4 million for two schemes in the Preseli constituency, which provide 20 more homes. The social housing grant allocation for 2020-21 is £3.928 million for affordable housing schemes. So, it's a significant investment. And the reason for that investment is exactly as you set out, because we know that getting people into good, affordable, warm housing makes a huge impact on both their health and their well-being.
We also have a number of schemes that are in the portfolio of my colleague Lesley Griffths—Nest and Arbed and so on. And I'm particularly proud of the optimised retrofit scheme, which I've recently announced, where we are working with a number of social landlords and councils across Wales to look at optimising how we can retrofit existing homes in Wales, learning the lessons of the Welsh housing quality standard. Whilst very successful indeed, it did have one or two lessons that we needed to learn from it, and that is that one size doesn't fit all.
So, that scheme will bring forward a range of different housing from across Wales. The examples I've been given are Victorian terracing, for example, in the Welsh Valleys, as against the between-the-wars or 1970s-style housing you see in my own constituency, for example. And it's obvious that a retrofit scheme for that housing won't be the same. So, the programme will allow us to optimise the retrofit, to build up the skills and the industry necessary to roll that out across all tenures of housing stock in Wales in order to give everyone, no matter what their tenure, the warm and affordable home that they require.

New Homes

Mark Isherwood AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the supply of new homes in Wales? OQ56028

Julie James AC: A themed set of questions today, Llywydd. Yes, Mark, increasing the number of homes being built, particularly for social rent,is a fundamental priority for this Government. We've made record levels of investment in housing and I'm confident of delivering our ambitious target of 20,000 affordable homes during this term of Government.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, the COVID-19 pandemic has delivered a sharp shock to the UK housing market, with the number of new homes registered to be built in the first three quarters down in all UK nations. However, Wales was starting from the lowest base. Last year—the highest year for UK new home registration since 2007—the numbers in Wales fell by over 12 per cent on the previous year, and the number of new homes built by 13 per cent to the lowest number since 2012-13. Social housing stock in Wales only increased 1 per cent, with just 1,288 new social housing or homes built.
How do you therefore respond to the statement by the Back the Bill campaign, backed by the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, Shelter Cymru and Tai Pawb, that Wales is in the midst of a housing crisis—demand significantly outstrips supply, many people are unable to afford homes in their local communities—and its call for a right to adequate housing in Wales, and to calls across the sector for the next Welsh Government to deliver 20,000 new social homes during the next Welsh Parliament term?

Julie James AC: Yes, Mark, I absolutely share your commitment to building a large number of social houses as fast as we can go. Housing is a key priority for the Government and that is why we've made the record investment of £2 billion in housing during this Government term. We've also been consistent in our message that social housing is our top priority, which is why it makes up the single largest element of our commitment to deliver the 20,000 additional affordable homes during this term of Government, which I'm very confident we have done.
The shame about the pandemic is that we would have overstripped that by some way if it hadn't been for the pandemic. But, nevertheless, in contrast to the stats that you've just read out, our latest statistical release—the Government's statistical release—shows that local authorities reported 2,592 additional affordable housing units delivered across Wales, which is a 12 per cent increase on the previous year and the highest annual total to date. A total of 13,142 additional affordable homes have been delivered from 2016 to 2019, and early indications are that 2019-20 will see a significant increase on the improved delivery of 2018-19. In 2019-20, we invested over £137 million in social housing grants and over £25 million in housing finance grants to support the provision of social housing across Wales. And a further £89 million has been budgeted this year.
In addition to that, we're investing £75.1 million of revenue funding over 29 years under the affordable housing grant programme to support local housing authorities to build new council homes. Around 400 new social homes are expected to be funded through this new initiative across Wales. We've already provided councils in Wales with £40 million to support property owners to help bring their empty properties back into use, and to date, we've invested around £90 million in innovative housing solutions under our innovative housing programme. This year's programme sees a further investment to accelerate our ambitions to build high-quality, energy-efficient, low-carbon social homes at scale and pace. And I recently announced £25 million for the IHP modern methods of construction special fund, as I just discussed with my colleague Joyce Watson, and a £19.5 million fund for the optimised retrofit programme, which I've just outlined in this answer.
Our latest new house building in Wales stats for October to December 2019 were published on 5 March 2020. During the 12 months to the end of December 2019, a total of 6,129 new dwellings were started, which is up 2 per cent on the 12 months to the end of December 2018. And during 12 months to the end of December 2019, a total of 6,071 new dwellings were completed, which is up 4 per cent on the 12 months to December 2018.

Finally, question 8, Mark Reckless.

Local Authorities and COVID-19

Mark Reckless AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the role of local authorities in the COVID-19 response in Wales? OQ56050

Julie James AC: I will do so with pleasure, Mark. Local authorities have played an absolutely pivotal, key role throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, in providing support to individuals, businesses and communities across Wales, particularly to the most vulnerable.

Mark Reckless AC: Thank you, Minister. We have quite a number of relatively small local authorities in Wales and two of the very smallest are in my region—Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent—and they coincide with some of the very highest levels of COVID infection currently. And I just wonder, is the Minister sure that they will be able to cope with the extent of that challenge, given the small size, and are there arrangements in place for mutual aid or support from other local authorities or from Welsh Government should that be required?

Julie James AC: Yes, we work very closely with all local authority leaders, elected members and chief executives in Wales. Just this morning I had a meeting with all local authority leaders and chief executives to discuss aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm absolutely grateful to them on behalf of the Government. I cannot say enough about the efforts the front-line staff have made across every local authority in Wales, regardless of size, in their efforts to keep their populations fed, housed, safe and protected. We absolutely continue to work with them to protect the vulnerable and learn lessons.
We've supported their operation ability by reducing statutory requirements relating to meetings and proceedings, where necessary, and we've worked closely with our third sector and voluntary sector partners to provide local tailored support to communities in need. Mutual-aid provisions have been invoked by local authorities. Interestingly enough, not necessarily by the smallest local authorities, because each one has different problems, depending on how the pandemic hits them and at what stage and where. The figures change very quickly. So, in my own particular health board area, Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, the figures there are hardly something to write home about, and they're some of the biggest authorities in Wales. So, it's not a question that size matters in this particular instance.
Nevertheless, we continue to keep a close eye, with them, on their resilience and their ability to cope, and we continue to manage the finances, through the hardship fund, with the co-operation of the Society of Welsh Treasurers. I'm really, really proud of the collaborative way that we've worked together, as local authorities and the Welsh Government in Wales, both at politician level, across party divides, and at all the official levels that you'd expect, right down to the front line, where the workers have been exemplary.

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item is topical questions. There are two topical questions today. The first is to be asked to the Minister for economy, and to be asked by Mick Antoniw.

Rhys Davies Logistics

Mick Antoniw AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on job losses at Rhys Davies Logistics in Taff's Well as a result of the company being put into administration? TQ523

Ken Skates AC: Yes, of course. The job losses that have been announced are a devastating blow, particularly at this time of the year, and our thoughts are with everybody employed at the site. We'll do all we can, alongside the Department for Work and Pensions, in ensuring that support is available to those affected.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, just over one year ago, a long-established family firm, Rhys Davies Logistics, based in Taff's Well in my constituency, was acquired by Cathay Investments, an English-based company with interests in logistics, chemicals, many other areas. The new owners described it at the time as the deal of the month, saying that it
'will enable RDL to flourish into the future...and we are confident that exciting times lie ahead.'
So, barely a week ago and barely a fortnight before Christmas, the loyal workforce in Taff's Well and other depots turned up for work, only to be kept waiting in the cold for several hours and then handed their redundancy notices and told they would not be paid. The only option is to apply to the UK Government's Insolvency Service for payment, and this may take many months.
Now, the way these workers have been treated, Minister, is a disgrace, and it does expose the poor state of employment rights in this country. What is coming to light is a company that appears to have been either grossly mismanaged or deliberately run down, where workers have been furloughed on a rota, whilst, at the same time, agency workers were taken on to do work of the furloughed workers in what may be an abuse of the job retention scheme. Minister, I've written to you about this, but I wonder whether you will carry out an investigation into what has happened at this company, to be sure there's been no abuse of public funds and to ascertain the reasons for its sudden collapse. I am certainly grateful for the speedy response of your officials in meeting with me the other day, and the work being done by Unite the Union to support their members.
So, what support can Welsh Government give to prospective buyers for this company, and in particular, what support can be given to the workforce? Minister, I know that employment law is a reserved matter, but will you consider ways in which Welsh Government can, in future, give support to workers who are faced with such dire treatment? I know that the Wales Trades Union Congress have, in the past, raised the idea of what I'd call a workers' solidarity fund; maybe in the current economic circumstances, there's merit in revisiting this proposal. So, I wonder if you would give this your consideration in support of the workers at Rhys Davies and others in the future.

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Mick Antoniw and say that there has clearly been a terrible treatment of loyal employees at this particular site? We are very, very concerned by some of the allegations that have been made against the company, particularly the allegation of misuse of the furlough scheme. I'd very much encourage Mick Antoniw to write to the UK Treasury regarding the points that he has raised today, and also I can assure him that my officials will be raising this matter with the Treasury as well.
Mick Antoniw raises a number of important points, including the support that could be offered to individuals and prospective buyers. We are keen to learn of any possible salvation for this company, so any potential buyer should make contact with the Welsh Government, and we'd examine what support we'd be able to give them. In terms of support for employees though, of course we've got a raft of measures in place that are going to be available to those affected, including, crucially, the ReAct programme, and other schemes, including personal learning accounts. We'll be working very much with the Department for Work and Pensions in ensuring that affected workers get all of the support, guidance and advice that can possibly be given.
Now, in terms of the suggestion of a solidarity fund, I think this idea does merit consideration. We have the social partnerships approach here in Wales, which enables trade unions to help shape support packages, and I'd very much encourage the Wales TUC to bring this potential scheme to the attention of my officials, so that it can be discussed at a future social partnership council.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for your response to this topical question. It is, obviously, hugely distressing to see such a major logistical firm cease trading—170 vehicles, 150 articulated trailers and a warehouse operation that spans across nine sites across the United Kingdom. And especially at this time of the year with the uncertainly, it's vital now that the help that you've identified from Welsh Government is made available to any of the employees who are calling out for that help. There is support within the local area. I, myself, today have been acting on behalf of some constituents who worked for this company, putting them in touch with other employers who have vacancies, and so hopefully other jobs can be found. But, have your officials been able to make an assessment of whether this is a unique set of circumstances for this one company or whether there are wider logistical problems within the sector that will cause problems for other companies, and that you are responding to those alarm bells that might be ringing across the transport sector?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for his questions? I'd share the sentiments that he has expressed regarding how distressing this news is for affected workers. Of course, we do have the additional £40 million available for the COVID commitment. It's specifically designed to help people who are in a position of those at the company right now, and that COVID commitment includes a significant increase in spending on schemes such as the personal learning accounts and the apprenticeship programme. We also have the regional response teams that are available to support workers, to try to identify alternative work as well for those that are affected, who have a similar skill set to those opportunities that may exist right now.
In terms of the logistics sector, as a whole, the logistics sector has struggled with staff retention and recruitment in recent years, and I think it's fair to say that, according to reports, the sector has struggled to find people with the appropriate skills. So, there are opportunities out there. It would appear to us—I can't comment on some of the allegations that are being made regarding the management of this particular company in recent times—but it would appear to us that what has affected this company is isolated to this company, and it is not an infection, if you like, of the whole of the logistics sector. Of course, we have teams in the Welsh Government though that are looking very closely at this particular company, to ascertain whether there are any common themes in terms of some of the problems that they've experienced. If so, we'll work with the likes of Logistics UK, representative bodies, to ensure that the Welsh Government, alongside the UK Government, because this is a UK-wide sector experiencing UK-wide challenges in terms of skills retention, to make sure that we are all providing the support that's necessary to give the sector some resilience during an incredibly difficult period.

Thank you, Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the question will be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

NHS Winter Pressures

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on NHS winter pressures, on services and waiting times for diagnosis and treatment? TQ525

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. Wherever feasible, the NHS will strive to continue to deliver essential services for both diagnostics and treatments, based on clinical priority and timeliness. Our NHS will continue to risk assess patients on an active treatment list, to ensure that those with the greatest clinical need are seen as a priority in line with national clinical guidance.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you. I'd like to make a plea on behalf of two organisations in response to your statement last week on NHS COVID pressures and new frameworks being put in place to deal with those pressures. The fear from Cancer Research UK is that the Welsh Government has issued a framework here that allows for local health boards to downgrade some key services, including elective cancer surgery and non-urgent, but hugely important, diagnostics. And remember, they've consistently argued for the stepping up of services to address the cancer backlog, a key recommendation made by the cross-party group on cancer last month too. They're concerned that lessons from the first pandemic wave haven't been applied.
The Royal College of Nursing make a call that, on the face of it, could almost be seen to contradict that, but it really doesn't. What it does is highlight the complexity of the situation we face, as you well know, and the need for very clear Government guidance to get us through that complexity. What the RCN said in a public letter to you is that severe workforce pressures, the overstretching and sheer exhaustion of staff and the simple reality of there being a lack of registered nurses available to work in some parts of Wales now means the pausing of non-urgent elective care may once again be necessary, just as in the first wave, and they say so with a heavy heart.
What both Cancer Research UK and the RCN very much have in common here is a view that there has to be absolute clarity from Welsh Government on the context in which decisions are taken by our health boards. Now, local options, as spelt out in the framework, are all very well, but can the Minister ensure with urgency that there's clarity on when the limiting of non-elective work should be triggered, for example, so there's consistency across the NHS, and what services, including in cancer diagnosis and treatment, we simply cannot allow to slip in this very serious second wave?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his question. I think, with respect, we have already addressed that in what we've said. I understand the fears of different service and interest groups, and I understand very well the position the RCN have taken. They're right that they and all of us should be concerned about the reality of staff absences. I've just come from a call with health boards and local government leaders from across the broad south Wales area, and the Aneurin Bevan health board have just confirmed that they have a staff absence rate of 11 per cent. Now, that has a significant impact on our ability to provide services, and if you're having that sort of staff absence, then you can't carry on providing all services.
It also means that it isn't an option for that health board or for others who are facing up to similar challenges to continue opening extra provision with the staff that they have, and so, there arevery real challenges. And, again, if you were talking to local government leaders, they'd also be describing the sort of pressures they have with staff absences too, and we know that police and crime commissioners and chief constables are facing similar pressures too. So, that's why we've introduced the framework of action.
It isn't just about individual health boards making a choice for themselves and ignoring other services, because we know that mutual aid is already taking place. Cardiff and Vale health board, for example, are already assisting Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board to manage some of their pressures. We know that cancer services often take place on a regional footprint. There are a range of other specialist services that take place across health board boundaries, and the message that I've been giving and health boards have been reflecting back is that, within the choices they are making to manage local pressures, they are already sighted on the challenges for regional services. Regional services have yet to be affected by any of those choices, but health board chief execs talk regularly about this. There was a conversation yesterday at the NHS board, chaired by the NHS Wales chief executive. There are regular means for people to have those conversations across the services.
I should say, for people to understand the concern about cancer services, cancer services are being maintained where it is safe to do so. It's that point about the safety of the service. So, cancer services are not being downgraded. We are having to manage against the real pressures that we face, and it is entirely possible that, in the near future, I may need to make a national decision about how services are managed. We do know, though, that the position in Hywel Dda is rising, the position is different in Powys, because they commission their secondary care, and we know that the position is slightly different in north Wales too. So, if I were to make a national choice at this point, that might affect people in north Wales, in particular, who might be able to manage some of those services for an extended period of time. But I'm afraid that if coronavirus rates continue to rise in the manner they do, then we will see a time when we may need to go back to where we were on 13 March with a national choice on services. We're not there at this point in time, but I take on board the Member's constructive points. We should not lose sight of the fact that local choices have to be considered within a wider context.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for the answers so far, Minister. Could you update us on the state of the health boards that have not so far suspended elective surgery? We know that two in Wales, Aneurin Bevan and Swansea Bay health boards, have both cancelled elective surgery. You alluded in your previous answer that you'd just come from a meeting about staff sickness within the NHS, so could you please give us the most up-to-date position? Because obviously the suspension of elective surgery in any health board has a dramatic impact on services provided to patients who have obviously had the expectation to be seen.

Vaughan Gething AC: The two health boards that I indicated earlier in the week have made public their choices to restrict some services—not just elective surgery but a range of out-patient appointments and others as well. I think it is entirely possible that we will see other health boards needing to do the same. And I refer to 'needing' to do the same—not wanting to but needing to—because of the very real service pressures. So, as I indicated in my answer to the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, we've already seen Cardiff and Vale assisting Cwm Taf Morgannwg with some of the pressures that they're facing, and it's important that mutual aid does exist across our national health service.
I think it goes to the heart of the first question about making sure that health boards don't operate in an isolated fashion where they only think in a very narrow way, but to understand the broader impact. And that, too, has to be a consideration for the impact on the Welsh ambulance service as well, because the way that pressures are managed will have an impact on the ability to get to people in the community, to manage the emergency calls that they are taking and then to move those people to the right place for their care to continue.
So, as I've indicated, the up-to-date position is that Aneurin Bevan are reporting an 11 per cent staff absence. I'll want to provide more figures to Members and the public on staff absences. I don't have a list to give you exactly on each and every health board, but people should not be surprised to see rising staff absences across each health board, in line with community transmission that we know is taking place. The R rate is going up across Wales, the threat level is rising across Wales; that's why the First Minister made the announcements that he did today.
On elective care and other planned care, I recognise that there is harm caused when that is delayed. There is nothing pleasant about putting off treatment, which will cause anxiety for people, even if they understand and support why it's being done. If you're living with discomfort, then it may not be of much comfort to you that there is someone else in even greater need. But that is why our NHS is making these choices. That is why, as health Minister, I've endorsed the NHS having a framework to help guide those choices. Because the need is so great and we have people who will need care that could be the difference between long-term disability or the difference between surviving and not, and those are the choices that we are engaged in making. So, that's why I'm supporting and have endorsed that framework of action, and I'm afraid that there are more of those choices to come in the weeks and months ahead.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Can I just start by saying that I'm not in any way criticising the NHS staff in the Grange hospital in my South Wales East constituency? They are doing an incredible job under extreme pressures at the moment. But I've had doctors, GPs, contacting me from the catchment area for the Grange hospital saying they are terrified for their patients they are sending there as they deem the Grange to be unsafe and unfit for purpose. As well as us obviously seeing now patients waiting in car parks for 17 hours with life-threatening illnesses, and people waiting in ambulances for extraordinary amounts of time, what is also apparent, from not just the COVID cases rising, is that the infrastructure at the Grange hospital is not ready. It is not coping. There are not enough beds, there are not enough staff, the internal phone systems are not working properly, and also the hospital is not set up to receive cars. And when there was an entire fleet of ambulances outside the hospital last weekend, it needs to be set up for cars, it needs to be ready. These systems, these internal processes are clearly not ready. So, what urgent action are you taking, Minister, to ensure that the Grange hospital is fit for purpose?

Vaughan Gething AC: With respect, I disagree with most of what the Member has said. I think there's a misunderstanding of the mission of this hospital, there's a misunderstanding of the severity of the threat that the health board faces and the choices that they are having to make with other partners to make sure they are prioritising the interests of patients in the greatest need. The Grange University Hospital was never set up to receive essentially what the health service would call 'walk-ins'—people who deliver themselves to an emergency department. It is set up to receive our sickest patients; it is not set up to receive people who want to drive themselves there. It is not like a normal local district general hospital in that sense; it was never set up to be that like that. As other Members from the Gwent area, I'm sure, will recognise, that was not the Clinical Futures plan and not the mission of this hospital. So, I think with respect, the criticism is misplaced.
There have been some teething problems—there was a problem with the telephony system—but more broadly, the reality is that the hospital is facing an unprecedented tide. This is a once-in-a-century event. The additional pressures that we are seeing are what has led to the extraordinary choices that mean that treatment is being interrupted or withdrawn in a range of areas to protect the interests of people in much, much greater need—people whose lives could be lost otherwise. The hospital is as fully staffed as it can be with an 11 per cent absence rate across the health board. That, with respect, isn't the issue; the issue is can we keep enough of our staff fit and well and able to attend, so service choices are not driven by a rising tide of staff absence. I'm sure the Member will have engaged with the direct briefings that the health board I know has provided to Members from the Gwent area to set out all of the detail of what lies behind this. I hope the Member will engage in that in the way that we continue to engage within this Parliament so that all Members are operating from the best available information.

Nick Ramsay AC: The Minister actually has covered a large part of the area I was going to ask about in his answer to Laura Anne Jones. I've also had similar concerns represented to me, Minister, not about the Grange university being unfit for purpose or not suited to the role that it's designed to carry out—I think, as you've just said, it's built for a specific purpose, and at the moment, it's having to deal with an extraordinary situation. However, there are some concerns about the number of COVID cases there and the fact that it's had to respond very quickly to a changing situation without, possibly, the capacity that a hospital that had been there for a long time might have been able to develop very quickly. So, will you confirm that you are going to keep the situation under review, that you will liaise with the health board, and if the COVID situation does deteriorate over the next few weeks, that that hospital and the health board will be able to cope with the situation?

Vaughan Gething AC: To be fair to the Member, the hospital is actually in his constituency, although it's in Torfaen local authority. The reality is that there is a bigger critical care unit within the new Grange University Hospital, and the health board are looking to surge and provide extra provision around critical care. The key limiting factor is staff, and we come back to this difficult conundrum; if you have need at the greatest level and you have reducing staff cohorts, you can't produce more staff immediately, and then you have to decide where to deploy those staff to address the greatest level of need. And that means that you need to move staff from other areas. Those are the difficult choices that not just the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board are facing, but health boards right across Wales, and indeed in another parts of the UK. So, that is what the health board are considering doing.
I can give the Member the assurance that the health board will continue to take all of those professional judgments about how and where to deploy staff to the greatest effect, given the significant need that exists. I will continue to work with not just the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, but health boards across the country as they face those choices, and if there is a need for me to make national choices as a Minister, then I will not shirk in my duty to do so. But I think it's really important that all of us continue to take a constructive evidence-led approach, and I certainly do hope that Members across the political divide are engaging with their local NHS as they offer regular briefings to Senedd Members to understand what the picture is locally and how that is leading to them needing to make significant choices to help keep Wales safe.

Thank you, Minister.

4. 90 Second Statements

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first is from Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Last month, rugby referee Nigel Owens put Pontyberem on the map when he made history, becoming the first referee to reach 100 international test matches as he took charge of the Autumn Nations Cup match between France and Italy in Paris. He is an international icon who continues to be deeply rooted in his local community.
For the community of Pontyberem, there have been many sports stars that have shone this year. I would also like to congratulate Jonny Clayton, from the world of darts, and Welsh rugby international Kieran Hardy.
Nigel Owens is respected across the rugby union as one of the world's finest referees. He made his international debut officiating Portugal versus Georgia in February 2003. He has refereed the 2015 Rugby World Cup final between Australia and New Zealand, and several European club finals. Last week, Nigel announced his imminent retirement from international rugby, bringing an end to his 17-year international career. While he's blown his whistle on his international days at the pinnacle of the game, he believes there's more work to be done here in Wales. He clearly wants to continue refereeing in the community game, and to keep giving back to the sport that he says has done so much for him. He says his mentoring role with young, talented referees in Wales is something he's very excited about, and he wants to work with referees at Pro14 level to help them make further progress, as well as our upcoming male and female referees. Many of us know of his additional career as a radio and television personality. His sense of humour on and off the pitch is clear to see.
Off the pitch, he said that rugby and the people in the sport saved his life when he came out as gay in 2007, and in doing so he became a role model for many. Nigel Owens has always been a fantastic ambassador for Welsh rugby throughout the world, and without a doubt he has put a spotlight on his home community, Pontyberem. On reaching the 100 test milestone, he said he was pleased to have made his family and community proud. I can certainly say that he has made Pontyberem and Wales very proud. Diolch o galon, Nigel.

Dawn Bowden AC: In my 90-second statement, I want to pay tribute to Cath Pendleton of Troed-y-rhiw in Merthyr Tydfil, referred to this week on BBC Wales as the Merthyr mermaid. This Senedd today records that Cath Pendleton was the first woman ever to swim a mile in the frozen waters of Antartica, an amazing personal achievement, an achievement of note in my constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, and now also an achievement on record for Wales.
For those who followed the dramatic story on television, you may, like me, have asked the question: why? But we heard Cath talk about her life, her service in the forces, the challenges that she and her family have faced, and then how she enjoyed the mental and physical battles of such extreme swimming. It was incredible to follow. It's an outstanding example of how individuals in setting personal goals, and by having the right people and support around them, can achieve remarkable records. Can I say that I was mighty relieved that the killer whales only showed a passing interest in the inflatable boat that took Cath into those deep frozen waters?
So, on behalf of this Senedd, our Welsh Parliament, I say congratulations to our Merthyr mermaid, Cath Pendleton. You helped brighten our year and made us all feel a lot better about life. We are very proud of you.

Thank you very much for those two wonderful statements. We will now take a short break.

Plenary was suspended at 16:18.
The Senedd reconvened at 16:24, with David Melding in the Chair.

5. Debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report: 'Mind over matter: two years on'

David Melding AC: Order. We now recommence with item 5, which is the debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report, 'Mind over matter: Two years on', and I call the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Lynne Neagle.

Motion NDM7518 Lynne Neagle
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report, 'Mind over matter: Two years on', which was laid in the Table Office on 9 October 2020.

Motion moved.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Acting Presiding Officer. It's two and a half years since I stood in this Chamber to say that I was both proud and privileged to address the Senedd on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's 'Mind over matter' report. At the beginning of that debate, I said that the emotional and mental health of our children and young people was one of the most important issues, if not the most important issue, for us to tackle as a Parliament. Two and a half years later, with a global pandemic as a backdrop to our debate today, it is clearer than ever that we have a fundamental responsibility to support our children to be resilient, to be mentally well, to be equipped with the tools they need to tackle the challenges that will come their way.

Lynne Neagle AC: Two and a half years ago, our committee made our commitment to this area clear. We called for the emotional and mental health and well-being of our children and young people to be a stated national priority for Welsh Government. We called for an urgent step-change in the support provided for our children and young people, arguing that provision had been too limited for too long. We called for drastic action at the preventative end of services, to stem the flow of mental health problems earlier, and to prevent the distressing—and in many cases, unnecessary—escalation of issues. We said that a whole-school approach was needed, as part of a whole-system approach, to support the mental health and well-being of our children and young people. We made it clear that we were unwilling to allow this significant issue to be handed on in a legacy report, yet again, for a successor committee in the sixth Senedd. Reaching the end of this Parliament with conclusions of 'more needs to be done' has not been an option for us. Our children and young people expect—and deserve—better than that.
So, how have we sought to deliver on our promise to this Chamber and to our children and young people that we wouldn't let this one lie? We have followed up our original 28 recommendations, regularly and forensically, over the last two and a half years. We have been supported in this work by dedicated professionals, parents and carers, children and young people, and the third sector. I would like to take this opportunity to thank them, and to place on record my admiration for them. Without them, our scrutiny would not be possible. Based on their views and experiences, we were able to produce our follow-up report. As part of this work, they assessed progress against each of our recommendations, and outlined where actions were needed before the end of this Senedd. I know other committee members intend to speak to specific areas, so I will largely focus on the headline issues they helped us to identify.
First of all, while change is starting to happen, and people are very committed to making things better, children and young people are still struggling to find the emotional and mental health support they need. We were told that change simply isn't happening quickly enough. People recognise it's difficult, and that the pandemic has placed significant pressure on our public services, but we believe the impact of COVID makes progress more vital than ever. The collateral damage to our children and young people caused by this pandemic makes pace and action in this area even more crucial.
Secondly, we need whole-system change to be our focus. We really commend the work that's been done to deliver a whole-school approach, and the significant work under way to deliver early help and enhanced support. Progress is visible and evidenced, and that is much to be welcomed. But we have made it clear that a whole-school approach alone will not deliver the step-change our children and young people need. From the beginning, we've said a whole-system approach is essential to realising our ambitions in this area. Schools cannot carry this alone. On that basis, we recommended that the Welsh Government expand the scope of the joint ministerial task and finish group, so that its remit covers a whole-system approach.
I'm pleased to see that the Ministers have put that recommendation into practice and that the group's remit has been expanded as a result of our call. But our work can't stop there. While we are reassured of progress in relation to education, we are far less confident that the pace of change in health and local government—including social services—is sufficient. It is clear to us that, on the health and social services side, progress hasn't been sufficient, and we are deeply concerned about this.
While we welcome the progress made in relation to early help and enhanced support, it's vital this is rolled out as quickly as possible. It's clear from the work we've done that many of the children and young people who find themselves in crisis care, or in specialist tier 4 settings, are, in fact, those we describe as the 'missing middle'. They are children and young people who would not have deteriorated if they had received early help and support. This is not good enough.
Furthermore, we are particularly concerned about what we consider to be a lack of progress in relation to supporting children and young people from CAMHS into adult mental health services. The Government’s response tells us that its transition guidance is being reviewed, but, from our work, it's apparent that this guidance has never been properly implemented. We think this is still too much of a work in progress, which is concerning two years after our report highlighted significant worries about this.
In addition, crisis care and tier 4 remain an area of real concern. Significant workforce capacity issues have been reported to us in the last two years, and we know that problems have continued during the pandemic in terms of accommodating children and young people in appropriate in-patient settings. Our report is clear that more work is needed to address the range of complex care and safe accommodation needs of our children and young people.
We remain to be convinced from the Welsh Government's response that the progress we want to see is being made, and that the join-up between policy and practice in tier 4 of the system is where it needs to be. On that basis, I call today on the Minister to put in place a formal mechanism to plan this work, and to bring all the relevant people together to deliver the outcomes we need across this specialist end of support.
We've also consistently flagged our concern that certain workstreams, including this vital area of specialist support, no longer sit under the remit of the Together for Children and Young People programme, and join-up with that programme is absolutely crucial.
The final headline issue I'd like to raise relates to how we treat our most vulnerable children and young people, particularly those who are care experienced. David Melding has championed their cause for many years. Most recently, he has done so as chair of the outcomes for children ministerial advisory group. I cannot let this debate go by without marking his contribution to the cause of children and young people. There are many reasons we will miss David in this place, but, as Chair of the children’s committee, I can certainly see the large gap that he will leave behind in our area of interest.
With regard to implementation of 'Mind over matter', a significant role has been given to the outcomes for children MAG. Looking to the future, the interface between the joint ministerial group, the Together for Children and Young People programme, and the outcomes for children MAG will be crucial. We cannot afford to let any of our children and young people fall through the gaps between these groups. For our looked-after children, this is even more vital; it is incumbent on us not to fail them. On that basis, I would welcome an indication from the Minister of how she, as the new Minister for mental health, will ensure that the structures that have been created will continue to work together. As our follow-up report states, continued commitment and leadership from the Welsh Government and sector leads are essential to drive this agenda forward and facilitate the joint working that is so necessary.
In drawing my opening remarks to a close, I'd like to acknowledge the work of officials and Ministers in response to our 'Mind over matter' recommendations. While I don’t apologise for our persistence and determination, I do recognise the effort and work that it generates. Undertaking constructive scrutiny and working together with the Executive to deliver on its results is at the core of a good and effective committee system. The successful development of a whole-school approach to emotional and mental health demonstrates what can be achieved when we work together effectively. The promise that the Minister for Education made yesterday to include emotional and mental health on the face of the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill does the same.
I hope our work can continue to deliver concrete results for our children and young people between now and the election. As Chair, I commit to doing all I can to drive progress in this vital area in the remaining months of this Senedd.
I wanted to close by repeating what I said when I spoke to the Welsh Youth Parliament recently. I told them how, after a speech about 'Mind over matter', where I had emphasised how central young people's voices were to our report, a delegate had come up to me and asked me what the young people who had died by suicide would say if they were there that day. That has always stayed with me. Above all, it is the voices of the young people who are no longer with us that must drive our relentless focus on delivering the emotional and mental health support that our children and young people need and deserve. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much, Lynne. And I'm very grateful for what you said about the ministerial advisory group. I must apologise to Members. I should have given you a full two minutes after the bell was rung, and I fear you only had 20 seconds. So, the breathless get my apologies, and I won't penalise anyone who turned up slightly late because of my error. Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: And for that I'm extremely grateful, Presiding Officer—Chair, sorry. Yesterday, my colleague Mark Isherwood highlighted once again the vulnerability of looked-after children. He said that, although looked-after children are taken into local authority care to improve their welfare, they are over represented in child criminal county lines exploitation and are therefore far from being effectively safeguarded. It's disappointing, then, that looked-after children merit just one mention in Welsh Government's mental health delivery plan 2019-2022, which is
'to ensure specialist mental health services...are equally accessible for...children and young people'
in
'or on the edge of care.'
I don't think that is the greatest ambition that should be reflected in that report.
And still, this year, Welsh Government was still expecting to be at the stage of developing proposals for better integration between health and social services and agreeing the scope of work streams. What happened to the prompts in 'Listen. Act. Thrive.', the report that was presented to David Melding's advisory group? And where is the particular attention for looked-after children in the £15 million that has gone to the regional partnership boards? Have they even caught up with children's mental health needs yet?
These young people, even if they remain looked after for longer, thanks to the When I am Ready policy, and even if they've been with the most nurturing and restorative foster families, will inevitably find any transition to adult mental health services very challenging. Not all looked-after children will need formal mental health care when they are younger, but you can see why the challenge of moving into independent adult life could trigger or exacerbate poor mental health.
It's not only looked-after children who face that challenge. I spoke to a constituent today who feared that their teenage autistic child—very loved and very supported, doing very well at a specialist school—would really struggle once they had to move to the oversight of adult social services. And while that's not mental health services, they were worried that the collapse of the child's familiar support system and the loss of parental responsibility would result in that young person needing mental health support too.
Just as When I am Ready recognised the arbitrariness of a birthday as the signal to switch services, so did the Together for Children and Young People programme. We heard in evidence for the original 'Mind over matter' report that young people felt that they were expected to become adults overnight, that it was scary, that it was like jumping off a cliff edge to move from CAMHS to adult services. The Royal College of GPs said that young people disappear into a black hole. Youth workers told us that some young people find even basic things impossible.
And, yes, guidance on how to transition well existed then and subsequently, but the essential failure remains, and that is delivery. And it matters acutely, because it's amongst those 18 to 19-year-olds that we see suicide rates rise. The impact of the guidance, which Together for Children and Young People prepared then, was due to be reviewed by this month. So, did you discover, Minister, any delivery on our recommendations?
What we heard two years later—well, the attempt to move away from the arbitrary transition date of a person's eighteenth birthday isn't consistently successful. Many young people are still being automatically transferred to adult services on that birthday, and that inconsistency and lack of continuity is setting young people back. While we understand that extending CAMHS to the age of 25 would incurcost, what does it cost us and that young person if they have no real chance to wean themselves away from previous support?
We also heard from Welsh Government in February this year, and remember, please, that 'Mind over matter' was published in April 2018, that a draft consultation on draft transition guidance was beginning. Beginning—almost two years later. The recent expectation on health boards to monitor and evaluate implementation of the guidance, Welsh Government's commitment to a review of those approaches, Professor John's very welcome review of suicide and self-harm incidences in the last five years—I just really don't feel that Welsh Government's response to our recommendations on this issue of transition has been urgent, and it needed to be urgent.
In the mental health delivery plan, there is no mention in the 'progress to date' section of transition, and that's not surprising, because there are no proposals to even develop the arrangements to monitor the use of the guidance until next year or the year after. Why on earth is this taking so long? There was already good guidance in 2018, enhanced by the subsequent work of Together for Children and Young People, and yet you still wanted to review it.
In short, Minister, I'm afraid that our fears have been realised. By absorbing responsibility for the mental health of children and young people into an all-age plan, it has lost its priority. For all the hard work that has been done—and we acknowledge that, and the millions poured into this—we are, to all intents and purposes, no further on in helping young people transfer seamlessly, with support, into adult services.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Chair. I'm very pleased to take part in this debate on the importance of support for mental health to our young people. There are several years that have passed now since the Centre for Mental Health published a report on mental health services across the United Kingdom—a report that found that children and young people who face mental health issues go, on average, 10 years between the start of their issues and receipt of support for the first time. That obviouslyisn't acceptable.
So, there's nothing new about underlining these issues with mental health services. I think that's why the report that we're considering here, the 'Mind over matter' report, says that we're not willing to let this issue be passed on once again to another committee, with the same suggestions and recommendations being made—that we need to do more.
So, I think that it is very good, where there is a critical report published, that there is that follow-up work being done. That's vital. Knowing that there are some things that people aren't going to let go—remembering that can drive improvement in services. I very much hope that committees in future Parliaments will continue to monitor this.
I'm going to focus on a lack of services for that missing middle, as I call it—children who don't quite reach the criteria for access to specialist services, but who clearly need help. This has been a common theme in several reports over a period of 20 years.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Of course, there is some provision—school counselling, for example. The development of mental health in the new curriculum is ongoing too. But that transition between youth and adult services, the major gaps in services, the constant gate-keeping of people being told that they are not ill enough, remain major problems that have to be addressed.
That's why Plaid Cymru has proposed creating youth one-stop shops, which we're basing on a model that seems to be working very well in New Zealand. Within New Zealand's youth one-stop shops, several services are offered by physicians, by nurses, counsellors, social workers, youth staff, providing primary care, sexual and reproductive health support, mental health support, drug and alcohol services, counselling, smoking cessation, family planning, health promotion, education services—a whole raft of services. In other words, they treat and help the individual that they work with. They don't pathologise or medicalise the individual. They're based on a social model of mental health.
Now, we'd want to establish hubs to provide these comprehensive youth-focused services, including mental health services, in a single community-based setting, and 'youth' would be defined to include both adolescents and young adults, but, crucially—and I think that this is very, very important—nobody would be turned away because they don't quite meet some arbitrary age that would mean some people being turned away when they clearly need support. We'd aim to provide specific mental health services to young people who, as I say, aren't ill enough to require advanced psychiatric treatment, for example, but do certainly require support. But they can offer other services to treat the whole person in an age-appropriate manner. There could, for example, be the opportunity to co-locate other services around employment and specialist education and so on in these areas.
We've worked out the budget that we believe needs to be set aside to do this. We'll commit to doing that, and we're pleased to be facing questions on the finances; it's really important to look at the finances of an initiative like this. But we really should be asking what the financial cost is of not getting this right. What is the cost of lifelong use of specialist mental health services because we didn't have the services in place to intervene early and to support early? I guarantee you that the cost will be substantially more if we don't invest in our young people right now.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I say I'm very pleased to be contributing to this debate, as a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, although I wasn't a member of the committee when the original report was published? Can I start by thanking our Chair, Lynne Neagle? This, of course, has been my first term in the Senedd, and I've learned a lot from the way in which I've seen Lynne apply herself to this subject area, with passion, diligence, and speaking truth to power where required, all to seek improvements in services and provide vital support to others, particularly children and young people. So, thank you for that, Lynne.
I just want to cover two areas in my contribution. Firstly, and partly the area that Rhun has just covered, which is about the missing middle; and secondly, around psychological therapies. I think we do need to acknowledge the fact that the pandemic has heightened all our concerns and brought into sharp focus the monumental task that we still face as we consider the well-being of our children and young people. And, as with many issues that we've scrutinised in this report, there has been progress, which is always to be welcomed, but that scrutiny has also highlighted that further progress is still needed in a number of areas. But, overall, I do agree with the education Minister in her written reply to us, in which she says,
'I think we can agree that much has been achieved over the last two years.'
So, firstly, I'll just talk about the missing middle, and I won't repeat the points that Rhun ap Iorwerth made, much of which I do agree with. Instead, I think I'll just remind Members of what the Senedd said in that original 'Mind over matter' report in 2018. It talked about
'urgent work was needed to address the lack (and in some cases absence) of services for children and young people who need support but do not meet the threshold for specialist CAMHS'.
Now, I think it's fair to say that our recent update is more confident that progress has been made. During this Senedd term, we should see the frameworks develop and the staff appointed to help embed the culture of a whole-school approach to well-being; an approach that not only works in our schools, but also in the wider network of Public Health Wales and other public services, as we aim to deliver what Lynne referred to earlier on as the 'whole-system approach' to the mental health and well-being of our children and young people. If the Welsh Government deliver on their spring 2021 target, then that is progress that we can indeed welcome.
My second point is around psychological therapies, and the committee is of the view that, certainly, not sufficient progress has been made in that area. And while we welcome the Welsh Government's action to implement our follow-up recommendations on psychological therapies around ensuring that there are sufficiently trained therapeutic practitioners to support children and young people, we do need to see evidence of the development and implementation of the workforce plan for mental health that will deliver this.
We appreciate, of course, that there has been disruption to workforce plans and that work around prescribing trends was also delayed, due to the pressures of the pandemic. But the committee believes that it is important that the Welsh Government quickly re-establishes timelines for the work that has been delayed or interrupted by the pandemic. Indeed, some of that very work, which the committee originally recommended, may in itself provide answers to some of the additional pressures that will face the system as and when we slowly emerge from the shadow of COVID-19, and more fully understand its impact on our children and young people.
I believe that the inquiry that lies behind the 'Mind over matter' report, and the changes in services that are now happening, is one of the most significant achievements of this Senedd. But, as with all change, it must become embedded and the identified weaknesses overcome, because only then will the benefits of that whole-system approach to improving the mental health and well-being of our children and young people be fully realised. Thank you.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd just like to concur, obviously, with what my colleague Suzy Davies has said today, but also with what the Chair, Lynne Neagle, has said today. I think that you lead our committee extremely well, and your passion is abundantly clear and infectious, and you've done an awful lot, so thank you very much, from the bottom of my heart, and I'm sure from many people across Wales, for all that you've done.
The 'Mind over matter' report was published back in April 2018, providing an ambitious and exciting template for the reform of child and adolescent mental health services in Wales. It reflected the views of the majority of stakeholders, and outlined plans to end years of repeated restructures.
I'm going to focus today on crisis care. Amongst the latest findings was that support for 24/7 services was not always available across Wales, and there was an over-reliance on A&E departments and police to respond to young people in serious distress. Today, two years on, concerns still remain about a lack of consistent, 24/7 access to crisis support across Wales. Young patients and their families feel let down because they're unable to access help at the time that it's most needed, and crisis services are often too adult focused, as many services are that will be mentioned today.
Further to this point about crisis services being too adult focused, the report called on the Welsh Government to look at how mental health professionals can support the police when responding to calls, and how crisis teams can provide training to front-line staff. Children and young people in distress can find their condition worsened by being in an adult setting, such as an emergency department, and being handled in an insensitive manner by staff. Urgent action is needed to improve training for those front-line services, so that they deliver a more compassionate response to young people in distress. We also need to ensure that there are designated under-18 hospital beds for use by young people in crisis.
The committee welcomes positive reports from the collaboration between police and mental health services to help support young people in crisis. However, the committee expressed its disappointment that information provided by the Welsh Government about steps being taken to improve crisis and out-of-hours care is, sadly, lacking. Last year, the committee said the situation was not acceptable, and still the Welsh Government cannot provide an accurate picture of how 24/7 crisis and out-of-hours services look across Wales. It's not good enough. We need to see action taken to provide a plan, including timescales and deadlines, for crisis and out-of-hours care for young people in Wales.
The report points out that looked-after and adopted children have a much higher prevalence of mental health issues, often as a result of neglect or trauma. Many have lived in families where they've been exposed to mental illness, substance misuse, violence, abuse or neglect. The 'Mind over matter' report highlighted other potentially vulnerable groups who may also need specific emotional and mental health support. These included young carers, young offenders, homeless young people, black and ethnic minority children, young people, care leavers and those with substance misuse problems. Greater priority needs to be given to the emotional and mental health needs of looked-after children and young people to ensure they receive the support they need at an early stage, and prevent problems from worsening or deepening in further years ahead. People reported that children entering care are not systematically assessed or reviewed regularly. It is essential that care plans should address a child's or young person's emotional well-being needs. I also would really like to know how this Government is working to provide mental health services online these days, because I think that's a real way of getting to young people, and for them to be able to access services more quickly.
Two years ago, the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report said that those experiencing mental health problems needed urgent help, and highlighted deficiencies in crisis and out-of-hours support. It is vital, Minister, that these weaknesses highlighted in the report are addressed, and that we really deliver for young people because they deserve it. Thank you.

David Melding AC: And I call the Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and Welsh Language, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I'd like to thank members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for their ongoing focus on improving the mental health of children and young people. I'd like to pay particular tribute to the Chair, Lynne Neagle, for her personal ongoing commitment to this issue.
We know that most mental health issues begin before people turn 18 years of age, which highlights just how important this work is. We are all concerned about the impact of the pandemic in this area too, and I can assure you that I am focusing on working across Government to mitigate the impact as much as possible and to ensure that the right support is available where and when it's needed.

Eluned Morgan AC: The 'Mind over matter: two years on' report gives us a perfect opportunity to take stock of the progress that's been made. I'm pleased that the committee has recognised the action that has been taken by Government, key partners and stakeholders. Implementing the recommendations agreed continues to be a key priority for this Government, and my appointment highlights our commitment and provides an additional focus at ministerial level in order to do so.
Although we have made real progress over the past two years, we recognise the committee's concern about the pace of that progress with some of the action points. I have taken steps to hasten the change already. Myself and the education Minister have agreed to refocus the task and finish group from the whole-school approach to a whole-system approach by expanding its remit and reviewing its membership. We met this week, and we intend to meet on a monthly basis to build momentum in order to implement improvements to the system. And in addition to that, I have ensured that the latest information on the action points on CAMHS are a standing item on the agenda.
I have also met with the deputy chairs of the health boards and emphasised the need for them to focus on CAMHS improvements and to incorporate an early assistance framework and higher level assistance when that is available, and we expect that to be published in April. I will meet with the chairs of the regional partnership boards and other stakeholders in order to ensure a co-ordinated approach in supporting the needs of young people.
In this difficult period, I can also provide assurances that mental health services will continue to be key services, including, of course, for children and young people. Our framework ensures that health boards do note plans to meet new demand and changing demand for mental health services as a result of the pandemic. It's crucially important, and health boards do need to ensure that their communities understand how to access mental health services, particularly if service models have changed because of restrictions, and the new information will be included on all health board websites over the next week.
Having said that, I do recognise and acknowledge the concerns on accessing support. This is an area that I am focused on in order to ensure that there is not a lack of connectivity between the assurances that we receive and the quality of the care that children and young people who need assistance are experiencing. To understand that better, I have met the Wales Alliance for Mental Health, and I will continue to do that. I've also met with the Children's Commissioner for Wales, and I will be meeting with the youth stakeholder group to understand what's important to them in terms of mental health and mental health support.
Turning now to crisis care, which is of particular interest to Laura Anne Jones, improving crisis care is a key theme in 'Mind over matter', and recently we've received the results of the review of urgent access to mental health services. The review looked at data across a range of services—111, the police, the ambulance service, the third sector and so on—in order to better understand the demand for services. And the review highlights the breadth of the social and well-being issues that are the basis for much of this demand.
The need for a multi-agency pathway to meet the needs of people is clear. This is not something that the NHS can do alone. Specific recommendations in the review relate to children and young people, and we will be focusing on delivering those at a meeting of the task and finish group in future. A multi-agency sub-group has been established to co-ordinate the response to the review, and that group met for the first time last week. I expect to see a plan put in place on how that work is to be developed before Christmas. It's worth emphasising that we are not beginning at the beginning, and we do need to build on the work of the group on crisis care. We've already looked at the pilot schemes of the 111 service, which will look at the experiences of service users in mental health crisis, and this will commence in January.
I have committed to improving support for those children and young people who have the most complex needs, and we have two clear work streams in order to do this: improvements to the level 4 provision and our work on secure accommodation.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: On tier 4, we've introduced a bed management panel, which meets on a weekly basis, managing the flow of patients between community and in-patient care. A review of age-appropriate beds is also under way to help us understand usage and how we can improve discharge pathways. The NHS quality assurance and improvement team provides intensive support to our two CAMHS units to improve patient flow and to make recommendations for improvements. And on safe accommodation in relation to complex care, we continue to support and encourage regions to use the integrated care funding and transformation funding available via regional partnership boards.
I've asked specifically both the Welsh Local Government Association and the health boards to look at this again to come up with new proposals. Regional partnership boards bring together all of the right partners and can provide the right vehicle for jointly commissioned health and social care residential accommodation in particular for complex care. Whilst work in some regions is already advancing, with proposals for therapeutic residential care models emerging in Powys and in Cardiff and the Vale, we continue to seek proposals from across Wales to develop this provision at pace.
The Together for Children and Young People programme remains a key driver for improvements to mental health services for children and young people, and I'm really excited by the potential of the early help and enhanced support framework, which we will ensure will work together to promote integration across the system. We want to embed this framework in the coming months so that it will be in place just as we stop as a Senedd term. So, that will be ready in April, and we hope that it will be embedded by the summer.
Addressing that issue of the missing middle, which Rhun and Dawn talked about, is absolutely essential, and I think it's important that we don't overmedicalise mental health at all times. Previously, the Together for Children and Young People programme, in partnership with Barnardo's, developed transition guidance and a young person's passport document, and this is to make sure that there's no gap in support between people being children and adults. We remain fully committed to improving transitions for young people. They must have the choice to move services not based on a fixed point due to their birth date, but based on a time that's appropriate to their needs. And Suzy, I'm sure, would be pleased to hear that on the review of the guidance along with the NHS guidance, the broader transition, not just about mental health, we're expecting that early in the new year.
Prevention and early intervention is critical, and that's why we've significantly strengthened the tier 0 and 1 support services, including the youth mental health toolkit and SilverCloud. Laura Anne Jones asked about what we're doing in relation to online support, and SilverCloud is our answer to that provision for over-16-year-olds. And of course, there's the CALL helpline. We've also invested £1.25 million to extend school counselling, ensuring contacts in every local authority were available online for people who weren't attending school in person. And just to touch on a point that Dawn Bowden made about psychological therapies, the guidance for delivering evidence-based psychological therapy for young people, Matrics Plant, will be issued, I'm sure she'll be pleased to hear, before Christmas.
We have a range of regional approaches to reduce suicide and self-harm, including bereavement support, training and awareness raising. We've published guidance to help respond to these issues, and alongside broader mental health funding, we've committed an additional £0.5 million per year to suicide and self-harm prevention. As the committee's always maintained, education plays a crucial role in meeting the well-being needs of children and young people, and this report recognises the tangible progress that has been made, but there's still more to do. Work is being built around the new curriculum and the health and well-being area of learning and experience, which places—as you've heard—well-being at the heart of the learner's journey, and it was good to see that go through yesterday.
Early next year, we'll be publishing our whole-school framework guidance to help schools, local authorities and other partners develop their own consistent whole-school approaches to well-being. The Minister for Education and I have agreed funding in principle until March 2022 to establish whole-school implementation leads to help the sector implement the guidance to share best practice and learning. We've provided £5 million this year to support this work, enabling us to improve and expand the school counselling scheme, funding local authorities to recruit and train counsellors in age-appropriate interventions. We're also working with Welsh universities to develop professional learning modules for school staff on well-being issues, and to train teachers and wider staff on children's mental well-being. I'd also like to pay tribute to the work done by David Melding on the outcomes for children in the ministerial advisory group. Thank you for everything you've done in that space.
Finally, we've recently revised our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan to support the changing mental health demand as a result of COVID-19. The revised plan reaffirms our commitment to prioritise the mental health and well-being of children and young people. I'm committed to driving this work forward and yesterday I announced that I'm establishing a 'Together for Mental Health' ministerial delivery and oversight board to make sure that this happens. The board will meet early in the new year and will provide greater clarity and assurance for our mental health work programmes and the mental health response to COVID-19.
Once again, can I thank Members for their hard work and their continued focus? I just want to reaffirm the Welsh Government's commitment to all our children and young people, and the best provision and protection for their mental health and well-being now and in the future. I'm glad you've recognised that we've done some work, but we also acknowledge that there is still work to be done. Diolch yn fawr.

The Committee Chair to reply to the debate. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Can I thank everybody who has participated in the debate for their contributions? I'll try and respond in the time that I've got available to some of the key points that were made.
Can I thank Suzy Davies for her contributions and her very well-made points about looked-after children? In our original inquiry, the evidence that we received on looked-after children from the heads of children's services in Wales was probably one of the most damning evidence sessions I'd ever sat through. It is a cause for concern that we still need to make so much progress in this area, and it is particularly important that we hear from the Minister how that link-up is going to work with the ministerial advisory group, the task and finish group and the Together for Children and Young People programme, particularly because of David leaving the Senedd. Thank you, Suzy, for the points on transition; it's crucially important that we get that right and make urgent progress in this area. The problems that we had with transition are, I think, a symptom of the fact that we are always too ready to fit children into the services, rather than the services around the children and young people, and that needs to change.
Can I thank Rhun for his contribution on the missing middle? It's important to recognise that when we talk about the missing middle, they are by far the biggest group of children and young people that we need to reach. I've met with many families over the years, and have met very few where a child has a diagnosed mental illness, but many, many where children and young people are experiencing acute distress. Rhun made some points about Plaid's proposals for one-stop shops. I think where I certainly agreewith him is the importance of that 'no wrong door' approach, which is something that the children's commissioner has also been promoting. We're already seeing good practice in places like Gwent, where every referral goes through a panel, and help is found for that young person. There's no question of being told that they don't meet the threshold.
Can I thank Dawn for her contribution, also on the missing middle, a vitally important area? But also for highlighting the importance of psychological therapies, which has been a long-standing concern of the committee, not just in this area, actually—we've also raised concerns in relation to perinatal mental health, and I know the health committee has raised this regularly as well. It's good to hear that Matrics Plant is being published soon, and the committee will look forward to hearing the workforce plans that will support that work being taken forward, because it is crucially important.
Thank you, Laura, for your kind words, and also for your contribution, and for highlighting the issue of crisis care. Too often, the young people who end up in a crisis situation are actually 'missing middle' young people, who wouldn't have ended up there if they'd had the support earlier on. I'm pleased that the Minister has reiterated her commitment to addressing this issue, and the task and finish group is going to be focusing on that, which is very welcome. What I would say, though, is that it's vital that the solutions that we find are child-centred solutions, and that we don't try and squeeze children and young people into an adult focus of crisis care.
Can I thank the Minister for her contribution, and obviously recognise that it's early days? We welcome the fact that there is now a dedicated Minister to drive this work forward. I do look forward to working with you on these issues. They are thorny and complex issues, such as the complex care issues that you touched on in your response, but it is absolutely vital that we address these issues, and we can't simply leave these things to RPBs. There has to be a very clear expectation from Welsh Government that they deliver on this now, as Powys has done. That has to be done consistently across the whole of Wales. The Minister also referred to the progress that's being made in the early help and enhanced support work stream, which is indeed very welcome, being led by the wonderful Dr Liz Gregory from Gwent. We look forward to seeing that rolled out across Wales at the earliest possible opportunity.
Can I, just in closing, then, thank everybody who's participated in the debate? Just really to reiterate my commitment and the committee's commitment to continuing to drive change in this area. In the 21 years I've been in the Senedd, we have constantly discussed the shortcomings in this service area, and I am absolutely determined that by the time we get to the end of this Senedd, we will be in a position where things are much better, not just in education, but across the whole system that is so crucial for our children and young people. Diolch yn fawr.

The question is that the committee's report be noted. Does any Member object? I don't see or hear any objection, and so that motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Culture, Welsh language and Communications Committee’s Report on the impact of the pandemic on the Welsh language

The next item is the debate on the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on the effect of the pandemic on the Welsh language. I call on the chair of the committee to move the motion—Helen Mary Jones.

Motion NDM7519 Helen Mary Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, 'The impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on the Welsh language', laid in the Table Office on 1 December 2020.

Motion moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to rise to commend this report to the Senedd, a report on the effect of the COVID crisis on the Welsh language. I want to begin, of course, by thanking members of the committee, our witnesses and our staff, who have continued to support our work through the pandemic. I'm very grateful to them all.The COVID crisis has of course had a massive impact on all aspects of life in Wales, and as expected, it has had a massive impact on the activities and institutions on which we rely to promote the Welsh language and to provide opportunities for people to use it. We received a wealth of evidence and in the short space of time available to me today, I can only highlight some of the aspects of our report.
We saw, of course, the cancellation of events—the National Eisteddfod, the Urdd Eisteddfod, and very importantly, a myriad of small and local events run by organisations like the mentrau iaith, all of them crucial opportunities for people to use Welsh in their communities and on a national stage. Now, these cancellations, of course, created economic risks, of which I know the Minister is well aware. There are 2,000 jobs that depend on the National Eisteddfod every year. The Urdd told us that they'd lost £14 million in total and will be in debt by £3.5 million by the time the financial year is done. The Welsh Government had to reprioritise its budget, of course, and £2 million of the Welsh language budget was reprioritised and used elsewhere, and the committee has no criticism of that whatsoever. But we are concerned that that situation shouldn't stand, and we are recommending that short-term reallocations of Welsh language funding do not result in longer term funding changes, which could detract from achieving the aims of 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Witnesses raised serious concerns about the workforce in this important sector in a number of ways. We have, for example, highly-skilled individuals who will find it easy to find other work, and may be permanently lost to the Welsh language sector. The Urdd highlighted the issue that qualified youth workers who could work through the medium of Welsh are worth their weight in gold, but they can, of course, also work through the medium of English, and they can also work across the border. They are very concerned about not being able to retain that workforce.
Another vital aspect that witnesses highlighted to us was the fact that these institutions and organisations often provide good-quality jobs in local communities where good work can be hard to find, and that they play an important role in maintaining Welsh as a community language. For this reason, we have recommended that Welsh Government should ensure that jobs that support and promote the Welsh language across Wales are central to its economic recovery plan.
We heard a lot from witnesses about the impact of work going online, and there were huge successes. The Urdd, in place of the real-life Eisteddfod, hosted performances from homes and gardens of competitors. Seven thousand people took part and there were 27 broadcast hours. Tafwyl, our much-loved Cardiff festival, again went online and achieved a global audience of 8,000 people. The National Eisteddfod, Eisteddfod AmGen, an incredible achievement—360,000 international viewers across the world, and Merched y Wawr created podcasts that had 10,000 views in their first six weeks.
Now, this was indeed a huge achievement, but there are issues. Witnesses highlighted to us that there are people who may not have the digital skills, and Merched y Wawr were running programmes to try and encourage that. That becomes very difficult with social distancing, of course. There are issues with access to equipment and to appropriate equipment, as well as knowing how to use it and, of course, the perennial issue, of which I know the Minister is aware, of the access to broadband, which is particularly stark in rural communities. Of course, many of our communities where Welsh is a natural language are those rural communities.
That's why we've recommended that the Welsh Government updates its Welsh language technology plan, taking into account the successes but also looking at what now needs to be done. And we've also recommended that funding and training be made available to the Welsh language sector to ensure that the digital successes that they have achieved can be built on, and that others are able to access that.
Witnesses were clear, though, despite the online achievements, that online work is not a substitute. We heard very good things about the number of people learning Welsh online, but the point will come when those people want to use that Welsh face to face with real people. The organisations were all clear that they want to get back to face-to-face provision, and it's very important that they're maintained through this difficult time so that they will be there. The committee is unanimous and feels very strongly about that. We cannot allow our crucial institutions to be terminally weakened.
It's interesting and not surprising that our findings and recommendations are reflected in the findings of the sub-group of the Welsh language partnership council that were looking at the effect of COVID on Welsh-language community groups. And I look forward to the Welsh Government's formal response to their recommendations as well as to ours.
Llywydd, this will be my last opportunity to speak in this Chamber as the acting Chair of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. It's been a huge privilege to serve our Parliament in this role, and I want to express my gratitude to my fellow Members who've been incredibly helpful and supportive, to all of those who've given evidence. And especially, I want to thank our remarkable staff who have done sterling work, enabling us to effectively scrutinise the Government through this incredibly difficult time. I also want to thank all the Commission staff, Llywydd. It's remarkable the way in which they've been able to get us online and enable us to function as a Parliament at a time when we might have thought that that would be impossible. I look forward to welcoming Bethan Sayed back to her role as Chair in the new year, and to continuing to serve as a member of the committee. I look forward to the debate this afternoon, and to responding.

David Melding.

David Melding AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd—I nearly said 'Gadeirydd' then, because our great stand-in Chair of the committee is just across the Chamber. But I do want to start by paying tribute to Helen, who, from 1999, has been a great servant and a great force to Welsh devolution and the development of our political institutions, and stepped in so ably. We all look forward, naturally, to Bethan coming back, but honestly, the committee lost none of its focus, and you took forward the priorities that under Bethan's leadership had been established, and really, in a year of most remarkable disruption for the whole Senedd in its working arrangements, we were able to cope with that and to really produce a succession of very important focused reports.
I thought this was a very impressive inquiry. It was fairly short, but we received, I thought, excellent and authoritative evidence, just about how the impact of COVID has been felt, across Wales but particularly in Welsh-speaking communities, and then also for the whole infrastructure that is there culturally and also in the education sector to promote and enhance and to fully allow Welsh to flourish. I think it's appropriate that we look at 'Cymraeg 2050' and the ambitions set there, and it took us a long time for that document to emerge from a Welsh Government—it's only two or three years old. We nearly got to the twentieth anniversary of devolution without an effective plan for how we would be a real bilingual society. And it's a really important document and the goals it sets for the medium and longer term are really, really important to us, and we must evaluate how COVID has disrupted some of these initial patterns, because we don't want to see any decline in our muscle mass—the infrastructure.
Now, as Helen said, the Urdd and the Eisteddfod and many other organisations have conducted a remarkable amount of activity, in the cultural sector but also in promoting the language and in ensuring that people who want to access Welsh and to learn Welsh can do that on digital platforms. All sorts of personalities, now, are telling us that they're trying to learn a little bit of Welsh, from well beyond the borders of Wales, and it's something of an international cult now, I think it's fair to say, which is not good enough for us, but at least it has piqued the interest of many people out there, who suddenly realise, 'Gosh, the oldest language in Britain is not English but it's Welsh.' So, they've taken advantage. It's a very good second best, I think, when you can have something equivalent to a digital Eisteddfod, but it is a second best, and I think in future we'll want to retain the digital end, because of, if nothing else, the equality aspect of it in allowing some people who cannot physically get to locations to be able to do so. So, there are great advantages there, and we really have seen the big anchor organisations respond with great alacrity, and I think this shows their underlying health and how much we should be in partnership with them in achieving our core aims for the future.
I do remain somewhat concerned about when the furlough finally ends and some of the support there at the moment, because there are a lot of highly professional people employed in these core institutions, and it's essential that they are retained and that we don't lose that, and for economic development in rural areas, but not just rural areas. We now have parts of Cardiff where the Welsh language and the economy around that is really important, and a growth sector with great potential, so I do want to see the urban side emphasised too. But let's face it, most community Welsh speakers are in largely rural areas or small towns and we dismiss some of these, as one witness said, as the hinterland areas. Well, they're not hinterland; they're an essential part of our life. And I thought what Helen said about the digital strategy and the need for a technology action plan to reflect the needs from the rapid change to online for Welsh language learning and for cultural activities, which we will wish to retain when we get back to the physical world—. But, in many areas, they don't have great connections and we need to remember that.
So, to conclude, Llywydd, I think we should congratulate all these organisations, and I will single out the Urdd and Eisteddfod, but there are many others too, for their outstanding work. We must ensure that the enterprise they've learned is an additional one and doesn't then end up replacing some of the past core activities, which are equally important.

Siân Gwenllian AC: As is the case in many other areas, the pandemic has intensified problems that existed long before the pandemic hit, and the Welsh language is no exception, as this report demonstrates, unfortunately. It's an uncertain future in terms of the Welsh language that we see here. The recommendations by the sub-group on increasing use of the Welsh language announced by the Minister today actually emphasises that and raises a question on the resilience of Welsh-speaking communities and the resilience and adequacy of the infrastructure in place nationally to support and rejuvenate the Welsh language in the face of all of these challenges.
Not only the impact of the pandemic, but Brexit, too, is a threat to the Welsh language. There was an assessment on the dual effect of COVID and Brexit on the Welsh language, looking at issues such as the housing market by the Counsel General. Now, that assessment and the recommendations published by the Minister for the Welsh language today are more narrowly focused on the impact of the pandemic on Welsh-speaking communities, but it would be good to understand what the relationship is between the two assessments and the two reports, and more importantly, perhaps, to know what will happen to these recommendations; what will happen to the recommendations and conclusions of these assessments. And even more importantly, we need an action plan in order to actually address the real crisis that could be facing the Welsh language, and we need to be clear who, within Government, will be leading on that.
The Government was very willing to cut Welsh language budgets at the beginning of the pandemic, but the Government must now be just as willing to take action on all of this evidence and to provide funding, once again, in Welsh language budgets, just as the committee's report calls for. Welsh language budgets were inadequate before the pandemic, and I want to put on record how concerning it is to hear about the news of a cyber attack on the Office of the Welsh Language Commissioner. Now, the commissioner’s budget was cut harshly year on year, and warnings were received in 2016 that we needed to invest in the institution’s systems in order to safeguard them. As I understand it, because of this cyber attack, the activities of the organisation have come to a halt, to all intents and purposes, so we need an urgent statement from the Government on the situation and to provide all possible support to the commissioner, both financially and otherwise, to restore the situation, particularly, given the funding shortfalls over a number of years.
To conclude, one key message in the report to Government is that jobs that support the promotion of the Welsh language across Wales should be central to its economic regeneration plans. And, of course, all Welsh Government plans should support the target of a million Welsh speakers, but I'm not holding my breath, given that the role of the director of education—the head of the Welsh Government's education department—a role that will be central to driving the million Welsh speakers strategy, has been advertised without a requirement for any Welsh language skills. The Minister and the First Minister need to take a grip of this situation as a matter of urgency. I'd like to thank the committee for its report, and I would also echo David Melding's comments in thanking Helen Mary Jones for her strong leadership. But I also look forward to working with Bethan when she returns. Thank you.

The Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and the Welsh Language—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I'd like to thank the committee for their report.The recommendations are useful, and I will be responding fully and formally to them in the new year, as today's debate is very close to the publication date. So, may I apologise that I haven't had time to respond fully and formally by today? But I just want to say that I do look forward to doing so very soon.
I understand why this debate is so close to the date of publication, because this is a very fast-moving area. COVID-19 has impacted on all of our policy areas here in the Government, and we have adapted our work very quickly since the beginning of the crisis to ensure that Cymraeg 2050 remains on the right path.
For example, we have ensured that Cysgliad, the spell-checker and grammar-checker online, is available free of charge for every school, every individual and every small company in Wales. We've held a Summer full of Welsh for your kidscampaign to support parents, especially those who can't speak Welsh, so that they can assist their children in Welsh-medium schools. We've also ensured that the Helo Blodservice is available to support small businesses and the third sector.
So, we did publish our own report, 'The effects of Covid-19 on Welsh language community groups', very recently. The pandemic has transformed our way of life. What we need to do is to reconsider how we engage with other people in our communities. It's made us think about how we can use some of the good practice that we have seen during this time to influence on positive use of the Welsh language in future. We've seen people being really creative—you talked about Tafwyl; the Urdd has done incredible work online; the Eisteddfod AmGen and so on. So, there's a great deal that we have learned, and we do have to ensure that we do get a hold of that and ensure that we use that expertise for the future.
Welsh community groups play a key part in our lives here in Wales. They create places for us to use the Welsh language together in all parts of the country. Earlier this year, before the pandemic struck, I established three sub-groups to the Welsh language partnership council. One of the groups, with Dr Simon Brooks in the chair, has looked at the impact of COVID-19 on the use of the Welsh language in our communities. The sub-group decided to hold a survey of community groups in Wales during the pandemic, and I'm very grateful to Simon and his fellow members for the thorough work that they have done and for compiling the report that I published last week.
I also welcome the recommendations that we've put forward today. I published those this morning. They, hopefully, will help us to deal with some of the challenges facing us. It's really interesting to see how many of these align with the recommendations of the committee.
So, to understand the situation in our communities, a survey was prepared, and 1,092 community groups responded. That's an excellent number, and I'd like to thank the mentrau iaith for collaborating with us on the survey, and for engaging with community groups and encouraging all of them to take part. We had responses from all kinds of groups, including choirs, chapels, Merched y Wawr chapters, cylchoedd meithrin, papurau bro, sports clubs and Welsh learners' groups. Thank you to everyone for responding and for giving of their time to be part of this important survey.
So, what we've had is a clear picture of what has happened at a grass-roots level since the lockdown in March—a picture that makes me very concerned about the future of that grass-roots activity. Eighty per cent of the groups said that they hadn't operated since the lockdown and that 68 per cent of their activities hadn't taken place. Of course, it's understandable that the COVID-19 regulations were the main reason for that, but there were other reasons too—members were concerned about meeting, couldn't access online activities, because they needed more computer skills, as you've suggested. Over half the groups are being run by volunteers, and almost 70 per cent of the volunteer groups have people running them who are over 60 years of age. I'm very pleased to say that the picture isn't all bad—20 per cent of groups managed to adapt their activities in some way in order to continue, and a small number of groups succeeded in establishing themselves during this period. Some of the groups succeeded in attracting new members and had seen an increase in the number of those who attended their events.
So, I do want to consider the recommendations that I published this morning alongside the findings of the committee's report, and a programme of work—I'm sure that Siân Gwenllian will be pleased to hear—will be developed to ensure that we do move forward as a result of those recommendations. I want to move forward quickly to see how we can support these important community groups so that they continue to flourish in future, and I will be responding formally in the new year to the committee
May I thank and pay tribute to Helen Mary Jones for her leadership of the committee over the past few months too? A great deal has been done since we launched Cymraeg 2050 in the summer of 2017, but our strategic priorities have remained the same. We're still working hard to increase the number of Welsh speakers, increase the use of the language and improve the infrastructure that is at the heart of everything. Now is the time to come together and work together in a positive way to reach the million Welsh speakers and to double the daily use of the Welsh language. Thank you.

I call on Helen Mary Jones, the Chair, to reply to the debate.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you very much, and can I thank everybody who has contributed to the debate? I must begin by thanking you all for your kind words about my chairing of the committee. I have to say that I've been so very well supported by Members and by staff that I don't think I can take particular individual credit for the work that we've done, but I am proud of what we've achieved through this difficult time.
I think we've heard, clearly, that Cymraeg 2050—we have to make sure that the actions supporting it are really re-evaluated in the light of what's happened, and I was pleased to hear from the Minister today. I know she's not responding formally—and we didn't expect that, of course—but we really will need to revise those actions to make sure that we take into account both the damage that's been done but also the positive lessons, as the Minister said, that could be learned.
With regard to digital presence, I thought what David Melding said about the online activity being a good second best, but a second best—it is true, as the Minister has said as well, that we mustn't lose the good things we've learned about digital engagement, but it is not a substitute. I did think, though, that David Melding's points about the equality impacts that people who couldn't physically get to an Eisteddfod—we all know how difficult it can be to walk around some Eisteddfods if you're fit and well, despite the best efforts to make them accessible, sometimes. And I think, again, that's something we won't want to lose. And his point about 'not hinterland'. These communities are not a hinterland of somewhere else, they are communities—. Natural Welsh-speaking communities, particularly in rural areas, they are their own communities, they are not a hinterland of bigger towns. And I'd echo David's thanks to all our institutions, and we're very grateful to them for all they've done at this very difficult time.
Siân Gwenllian is right, of course, to say that the impact of COVID in this field, as in so many others, has highlighted and exacerbated existing weaknesses and problems, and I really hope that the Minister will address those underlying weaknesses and problems as we move forward. That need for clarity that Siân highlighted, of working across Government to make sure that everybody's heading in the right direction—we very much hope, when we get the Minister's formal response, that that clarity will be there about who's leading and about who is responsible. The budgets must be restored. They weren't, as Siân said, very much in the first place. We would argue, of course, that there's more needed, but at least, as a bottom line, they must be restored.
I clearly didn't expect, as I've said, the Minister's full response today. She was right to highlight that we have positive things to learn, but I know she knows that we can't ignore the risks and the risks that have been exacerbated. The results of the survey she highlights reinforce our concerns, and I'm glad to hear her commitment today to act at speed to move this agenda on. We cannot wait. The workforce will be going elsewhere. We cannot wait.
Thanks, again, Llywydd, to everybody who's supported my work as committee Chair, to all the witnesses, to fellow Members and to staff. And I do look forward to carrying on with this work in a somewhat different role in the new year. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I can't see or hear an objection, and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We will now take a short break to allow some changeovers in the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 17:40.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:38, with David Melding in the Chair.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Free school meals

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

David Melding AC: Order. We recommence with item 7, which is the Plaid Cymrudebate on free school meals, and I call on Helen Mary Jones to move the motion.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Siân Gwenllian, I think—

David Melding AC: I beg your pardon. Siân Gwenllian.

Helen Mary Jones AC: —I think I'm summing up. I might not be.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Yes, it's me.

David Melding AC: My apologies, Siân. Please move the motion.

Motion NDM7521 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
Calls on the Welsh Government to immediately amend the eligibility criteria for free school meals so that any child in any family receiving universal credit or equivalent benefit and any child in a family with no recourse to public funds is eligible, as the first step towards implementing universal provision of nutritious free school meals for all school-aged children in Wales.

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: That's fine.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Plaid Cymrufirmly believes in the principle of free school meals for all school pupils in Wales, and that would be our view inGovernment. It would be a policy that would use local produce, would support Welsh businesses and would safeguard the environment. It's a duty on any Government to ensure that not a single child goes to school with an empty stomach, and yet, there are 70,000 living in poverty in Wales who don't currently qualify for free school meals. Clearly, we need to change that immediately. So, as a first, urgent step, we need to raise the threshold in terms of who qualifies, so that children in all homes in receipt of universal credit receive free school meals. According to estimates, increasing that threshold would cost some £60 million per annum.
If we were in Government, we would publish a clear timetable for the next steps towards providing universal free school meal provision, starting with the youngest children, and working upwards. Again, according to the estimates, introducing free school meals in the first three years of primary school would cost some £30 million per annum. So, of course there is a cost attached to extending this policy, and that's why we would move in a phased manner, but this is a policy that would deliver a number of policy objectives.
It would be a preventative model, creating financial savings ultimately, because there would be better health outcomes and education outcomes for our children. It would be a holistic policy, supporting the Welsh economy and, by reducing food miles, it would be beneficial to the environment too. This would be the well-being of future generations Act in action, improving many aspects of well-being, taking into account the long-term impact of the policy and preventing long-term problems such as poverty, health inequalities and climate change.
Unfortunately, the Welsh Government has dropped its target to eradicate child poverty by 2020, whilst 129,000 school-age children in Wales are living below the UK poverty line, with just over half of them qualifying for free school meals. The other half are missing out, mainly because their parents are in low-paid employment that takes them over the qualifying threshold. Wales provides fewer cooked free school meals at the moment than any other nation in the UK. In Scotland and England, every child in the first three years of their education receives free school meals, whatever the family's income. In Northern Ireland, the threshold for those receiving universal credit is set far higher, namely £14,000, helping to support far more working families.
The key benefit of providing universal free school meals is that it would eradicate the stigma that prevents many families from accessing the offer as it currently exists. Universal free school meals would remove such barriers and would reach all children, whatever that family's economic situation may be. The benefits of providing free school meals are enormous. How can a child learn on an empty stomach? How can you concentrate on your education if you're constantly hungry? Children would receive a nutritious meal every day and they would grow up as healthier young people, leading to less obesity and other health problems. Providing universal free school meals would improve the health of all children. There is research from the Nuffield Foundation that shows that, even for the children of parents who are relatively wealthy, school meals are more balanced in terms of nutrition than what's contained within their lunch boxes. And linking school meals to the local food chain would be good for the local economy and the environment, and pupils could learn about the benefits of eating good, fresh, local produce produced locally.
Now, imagine a school hall full of children socialising over a nutritious school meal—all of the children; lunch time being an integral part of their learning, the children supporting each other over lunch and learning about the value of local food and healthy food, visiting local producers and farms and making those connections between the various elements and learning all sorts of new skills together. There are many reasons, therefore, for everyone to support this motion and vote in favour of what is before us this afternoon and to adopt this very important policy. Thank you.

David Melding AC: The Presiding Officer has selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
Delete all and replace with:
Welcomes that the Welsh Government:
a) provided over £50 million of additional funding to ensure the continued provision of free school meals during the pandemic and was the first government in the UK to provide provision during school holidays;
b) provided additional funding to ensure that children who are self-isolating or shielding continue to receive free school meal provision when they are not able to attend school;
c) provides funding of £19.50 per week to free school meal-eligible families, which is the most generous provision in the UK;
d) ensured that Wales remains the only country in the UK to have a universal free breakfasts in primary schools scheme;
e) has been recognised by the Education Policy Institute (EPI) for being successful in ensuring families eligible for free school meals during the pandemic had “access to timely and appropriate support”;
f) is committed to reviewing the income threshold for receiving free school meals when Pupil Level Annual School Census (PLASC) data becomes available in April 2021.

Amendment 1 moved.

Kirsty Williams AC: I formally move.

David Melding AC: Thank you. And I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the existing eligibility criteria for free school meals in Wales.
2. Recognises the financial hardship faced by families across Wales as a result of the coronavirus pandemic and the challenges that this has posed for parents and guardians, and its impact on the demand for free school meals.
3. Welcomes the role that free school meals have in improving health and nutrition.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to amend the eligibility criteria for free school meals to extend provision to:
a) learners in further education; and
b) families without an income and who are not immediately able to claim public funds.

Amendment 2 moved.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Chair, and I move our amendment. First of all, could I just apologise to Plaid for having to resort to a 'delete all' amendment? I don't like doing it, but it was impossible to disentangle the parts of the motion with which we had some agreement from those with which we did not. What we tried to preserve is in point 4(b) of our amendment. I think there is something to be said for an entitlement to free school lunches for those children whose circumstances fall outside the current criteria because of particular crises. If you are a woman fleeing with her children from domestic violence, or if you are a parent whose own poor mental health has demonstrably prevented you engaging with a process to evict you or to claim your benefits, or if there is a delay even in receiving benefits—and I'm sure there'll be other examples—then maybe you really shouldn't also have to worry about relying on someone's discretion in order for your child to be able to eat, and if that food is procured locally and healthily, then so much the better.
We've also in our amendment sort of recognised that some families who might not have struggled in normal circumstances to pay for their children's food have found it more difficult recently, and whilst not explicit—perhaps I should have included it, actually—there's our support for the Welsh Government's extension of free school lunch provision during holiday periods while we're in the throes of this pandemic, helping to meet the needs of children newly eligible for free school lunches as well as those already entitled. I think that's been very valuable while we're all experiencing this turmoil. But that should not slip quietly into perpetuity, and this is where we do start to part company on the proposal for universal provision of free school meals.
I heard the exchange between the First Minister and Adam Price yesterday, and I heard the report given by the Child Poverty Action Group in last week's launch of the Wales civil society report to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child—thank you, Helen Mary—and we would agree that children feel well and learn better if their nutrition is well cared for. And this is the primary reason for supporting measures that ensure that children from poorer families can receive free school meals—lunch and breakfast—but if you are in work, earning even a modest income, its main purpose is to help you take responsibility for looking after yourself and your family.
Where exactly to draw the line between paying or not paying for your children's school meals should always be open to review, I think. But to park the responsibility permanently with the state is a removal of a core and very visceral impulse and drive at the heart of being a parent. There should be no stigma at all in needing a free school meal for your child, but if you can pay for it, you really should, and the reason we can't support an otherwise acceptable Welsh Government amendment is the continuing commitment to the provision of universal free breakfasts. There are families where children are not entitled to free school lunches who either feed their children at home before they leave or who can pay for breakfast when their child is dropped off before school starts. Let them contribute to the cost of that if they need to do so. The 2020 census shows that 61,389 pupils and students received a free school breakfast, yet just 12,564 of them—that's about a fifth—of those were eligible for free school lunches.
It's essentially the same arguments as against free prescriptions, and it's an opportunity to draw Members' attention to the perennial unhappy fact that we are still not creating the environment in Wales that fosters growth in better paid, more sustainable jobs that offer financial security to people, especially women, despite childcare funding. The pandemic has highlighted quite how fragile our improved employment figures were, with a steeper growth in employment in these last three months than anywhere else in the UK. As the Trussell Trust themselves say, it takes more than food to end hunger. So, all of us are uneasy and worried that child poverty is proving so intractable, but Governments needs to work together on raising educational, economic and social prosperity, not act increasingly in loco parentis.
Just finally, I think it might be a surprise maybe to some Members that sixth formers can be entitled to free school meals when their peer group in further education is not, and I'm sure it's to do with funding structures, but the original motion was about entitlement replacing discretion, and it's hard to see why, then, if we cannot find equity of entitlement for 16 to 18-year-olds. As Welsh Conservatives, we see the merit in extending the entitlement to educational training until a student's eighteenth year if they're not in work—itself a step towards addressing poverty—and it follows that parity of support should underpin that. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: Free school meals aren't just about feeding hungry children—they're about access to education, children's ability to concentrate in lessons, and ensuring well-being, health and attainment. The pandemic we're all living through has forced us to confront many injustices so ingrained in our society they've come to appear endemic. A third of Welsh children are living in poverty, and as the Child Poverty Action Group has calculated, more than half of them don't qualify for free school meals because of flaws in the eligibility criteria and the callousness of means testing. That is an injustice heaped upon an injustice—children living below the poverty line who still don't qualify for support. Our motion as set out would correct this by extending the eligibility to all children from families who receive universal credit, or who have no recourse to public funds. Crucially, we would do this as a first step towards providing universal free school meals, to learn the lessons from nations like Finland and ensure that the shameful scourge of children too hungry to learn is abolished forever.
Because school meals don't begin and end with the meal. They create shared experiences, they forge bonds, stop stigma and shame. They lessen stress for children and families and advance children's emotional and physical development. Children who go hungry are more likely to suffer with chronic illnesses, anxiety and depression, and they're more likely to go on to suffer from diseases like cancer, diabetes and heart disease. That is the impact that debilitating hunger has.
Of course, free school meals have been high on the agenda across the UK recently because of the English Government's stubbornness about providing meals outside of term. In those Westminster debates, some Conservative MPs showed the ugliest side of their politics. One MP said he didn't believe in nationalising children, as though taking the basic step of ensuring no child goes hungry was the equivalent of Red Guards at the door.
Cadeirydd, it used to be possible to send children to work as chimney sweeps. It used to be possible to send children to work underground. That was only stopped through legislation starting with the mines Act in 1842, which meant only boys older than 10 could work in the mines. It seems barbaric to us now, but it was an important step. I wonder, when future generations look back at us, how barbaric it will seem to them that we allow children to attend classes with empty stomachs. That 1842 Act has meant that, since the mid nineteenth century, the state has accepted a responsibility over the welfare of children. It is a small step from that to accepting that Government has a duty to prevent child hunger. Cadeirydd, there are many areas in politics where parties will disagree—trade, taxation, targets. But there is a baseline of decency, or there should be. There should be a bar below which we should not ever sink. Ensuring every child is cradled with support and compassion and is fed should be far above that bar. Anyone who disagrees should examine their conscience.
There was an important exchange, referred to already, during yesterday's First Minister's questions, when the First Minister referred to a pamphlet from the 1940s about school meals, and it was called, 'And they shall have flowers on the table'. That evocative title strikes at the heart of this debate. School meals shouldn't be about providing the bare minimum. They should never be the source of stigma or shame. They should be the gateway to healthy lives, an eagerness to engage with school and a happiness that shouldn't be a luxury for the children whose families can afford it. Just as eligibility for free meals opens up other services like help with uniforms, music lessons and school trips, we should also see school meals as a means of helping children gain formative and valuable experiences.
Cadeirydd, the debate around free school meals has become totemic because it speaks to the values we as a society place on our children's lives. It's not simply a debate about economics. It's about the importance of joy, compassion and providing young people with hope. No injustice can ever be beyond remedy. We must forge a society where our children are fed, where they shall have flowers on the table and where they shall have reason to find joy.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm very pleased that this issue is being debated today. I have previously asked for a Welsh Government statement or debate on this issue, as children going hungry or relying on foodbanks is not what I and, I believe, most Members here want to see. I also submitted many written questions this year on free school meals.
For many children, the free school meal is their major meal of the day. To repeat something I have said many times in the Chamber, on school holidays, parents must provide an additional 10 meals per child a week during school holidays. If you've got four children, that's 40 meals. That is why I've continually asked for and now welcome the continued provision of free school meals during the school holidays at Christmas and Easter. Will the Government confirm that this is also to be provided at half term as well, because children will still need to be fed then? I'm also calling on the Government, when they set their 2020-21 budget, to budget for free school meals across all school holidays including all the half-term holidays.
I'm not sure that all Members understand poverty. Some of us understand it from personal experience; to us, it's a lived experience, not an abstract debating point. It is real. It affected us and people we grew up with and went to school with. So, those of us who come from a certain background know what a school dinner is. The reason we know what a school dinner is is because it is the main meal of the day and it is followed by 'tea'. It keeps many children adequately fed, that's why I'm so pleased that it'll be provided across the next holidays. When I was in school, pupils would not attend lessons, they'd go on what used to be described as 'the mitch', but they'd come into school at lunch time in order to get their free school meal so that they would be fed, because that would be the main meal that they'd have that day. If you want to know someone's background, ask them when dinner is—is it at midday or evening? People like myself would certainly say 'midday'; I think most people in this Chamber would say 'evening'.
I support the first part of the motion, which calls on the Welsh Government to immediately amend the eligibility criteria for free school meals so that any child, any family receiving universal credit or equivalent benefit, and any child in a family with no recourse to public funds is eligible. Expanding eligibility would help struggling families to cope. It would improve, as I think Delyth Jewell said, educational outcomes and help tackle in-work poverty. I think we sometimes forget that if children are poorly fed, their performance in the classroom is likely to be substantially less. If you're worried about eating, studying mathematics is probably at a much lower level of importance in your life. Over half the children of Wales who live below the UK poverty line are not entitled to free school meals. Of the 129,000 school-aged children living below the poverty line in Wales, over 70,000 are not eligible for free school meals. Many of them are my constituents. They're mainly there because their parents are in low-paid jobs that take them over the eligibility threshold. In addition, nearly 6,000 children in Wales are not normally eligible for free school meals because their families have no recourse to public funds. Many of these children live in deep, long-term poverty and are in urgent need of support. The Welsh Government needs to urgently address this for next year.
Do Plaid Cymru believe that the provision of free school meals to every child is a good use of limited resources? Is it costed? Will it appear in Plaid Cymru's proposed budget for 2020-21? What is the estimated cost of everybody? Is there a capacity issue? If the school uses the hall, as it does in many primary schools, for providing meals, and teaching such as physical education, how will it fit together? Kitchen capacity; serving capacity; organising several sittings based upon the capacity of the hall; timing of the sittings—there are schools that now have two sittings, and how would three or four be organised? On universal provision, a great headline, ill thought out. But we need to expand the provision of free school meals to all children in need. We need to commit to expanding the provision, we need to commit to continuing it through the holidays. This, as I said earlier, will improve educational attainment. Children well fed will do better because they're not worrying about eating but they're spending a lot more time thinking about what they're being taught.
How is it to be funded? I think I'm one of the few people who actually comes up with ideas about how things should be funded—not something that will go down very well with my own party, I would expect. As I keep on saying, out of the economy and transport portfolio. As I keep on saying, higher educational attainment is the best economic development tool—far better than bribing companies to bring branch factories to Wales, which they keep here for a few years and then leave. We need to ensure that our children are well fed, that every child can do the best they can, so that we have a highly skilled workforce, and that will answer, perhaps, what Suzy Davies said about low pay. We've got low pay because we've got low skill. We need to improve our skills base. One of the ways of doing that is making sure that children are fed when they are going into the classroom.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much. I approach this debate from two perspectives—first of all, as a parent who is very aware of the importance of a healthy diet, a nutritious diet for my children, as for all children, but also from the point of view of how this policy could be used to reform procurement practices and to develop those supply chains and opportunities for the food sector and the wider economy.
Of course, the pandemic has pointed to fundamental weaknesses in the food system in this part of the world, and Plaid Cymru went into detail on that in the debate on food around a fortnight ago. But, if you add in the implications of Brexit—and it's likely that we will see economic austerity and the levels of unemployment increasing, but Brexit will also lead to challenges in terms of food supply and increases in food prices, particularly with regard to fresh food such as fruit and vegetables—there's a danger that there will be an increased dependency on foodbanks and that we'll see the food inequality that already exists in this country intensifying, with a two-tier food system becoming a more evident aspect of our society, with those who are able to afford to feed their families and those not able to do so.
Of course, the main focus of this policy is to ensure that children receive the food and nutrition that they need and improve their diet and health at the same time. We know that levels of obesity are increasing in Wales. We also know that over three quarters of adults in Wales don't eat their five a day in terms of fruit and vegetables. Frighteningly, that rises to 94 per cent of children between 11 and 18 years of age who don't eat their five a day when it comes to fruit and vegetables. More than that, less than a third of young people in Wales say that they eat a portion of vegetables once a day, and that comes from Public Health Wales.
Now, there are illnesses that emanate from poor diet, and that costs about £73 million a year to the health service in Wales on an annual basis. So, we must do more in order to get to grips with this, and ensuring that every child in Wales receives healthy food and free of charge in schools would help to prevent obesity, as I said, but would also decrease pressure on the health service.
But, as I said at the outset, there is an opportunity here to realise wider benefits as a result of a policy of this kind. We want to see ingredients for school meals being provided from local sources, which would then provide an important opportunity to support and strengthen local economies. Using more vegetables, fruit and local ingredients for school meals would help to create a new local market for our farmers, but it would be a foreseeable and guaranteed market. That would help to strengthen supply chains on a local basis. Too much wealth is being lost from our communities through procurement by suppliers from far away. I've said before that the local economy is like a bucket with a number of holes in it, with the wealth flowing out of the local community. This is an opportunity for us to plug some of those holes and to keep that money circulating within the local economy. It would also help to get to grips with climate change, as one or two have referred to already. Creating an expectation that produce, such as meat and vegetables, was to be provided locally would decrease food miles and would therefore help to lower carbon emissions.
It would also give a boost to the horticulture sector in Wales. If school meal standards were to include two portions of vegetables per meal, that could increase the productivity of the domestic horticultural sector by 44 per cent. We know that there are 13 types of vegetables grown in the UK where it would be possible to increase their production significantly. So, it's a realistic policy, and it's an achievable policy. It would create jobs and, at the same time, would decrease our dependency on imports. But only 0.1 per cent of the agricultural land of Wales is horticultural land at the moment. According to Tyfu Cymru, Wales only produces enough to provide a quarter of one portion of vegetables a day to the people of Wales, and we very much need to get to grips with that, of course. Research by the Food Policy Alliance Wales means that this way of working could create dozens of large-scale agroecology jobs in Wales, or more than 500 jobs through small-scale agroecological schemes, with an output of £400 million—sorry, £4 million, not £400 million; that would be a major game changer.
But we mustn't forget either that providing more healthy food on a local basis would provide an opportunity at the same time to strengthen awareness amongst young people and children about that important connection between their schools and their local areas, the agriculture sector, and the natural environment that supports our food system. Eating healthily, supporting the local economy, learning about networks and food processes locally, and that connection with the local environment. Who would have thought that changing policies with regard to school meals, and increasing the level of free school meals, could bring such multilayered and various benefits, central to the kind of revival that we all want to see?

Jenny Rathbone AC: This is all very much welcome food for my ears, as I've been arguing the case for universal free school meals in one way or another for quite a while. So, I really do welcome the level of agreement across the three parties on the importance of this issue. There is some disagreement at the edges, which we could hammer out in due course. But I think, picking up on some of the points that have already been made—for example, Suzy Davies questions whether parents who are not eligible for free school meals should pay for the wraparound care that they are effectively getting by enabling their children to attend the free school breakfasts. I think we need to acknowledge that many parents are using it as childcare, but, equally, the wraparound care that the free school breakfast provides does also enable them to go out to work. It can often be the game changer that enables them to take jobs and still be better off.
So, I think there's a great deal of merit in what has been said before, but I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done to really make this happen, because we can't simply just turn on the horticultural tap overnight, and we need to gear up our public procurement services to really work out exactly how much is needed by which school, as well as ensuring that we've got properly skilled and trained-up cooks to cook the nourishing freshly prepared meals that this assumes, because there's no point in having free school meals for all primary school children, for example, if the quality of those meals is so poor that a lot of them opt out with their feet.
As Siân Gwenllian has already said, enabling everybody to have a free school meal really does eliminate the stigma that currently stops a lot of people who are entitled to free school meals from taking it up. And others are unaware of the benefits that they would be entitled to if they could trust people enough to reveal just how little they are living on. And there is no doubt that the poverty we see all around us is going to get worse as a result of the pandemic and the disruption caused by a very abrupt leaving of the European Union.
I just want to talk about the pilots of universal free school meals that have taken place in England, because they reinforce, having done it, the benefits of this. So, Islington was the pioneer, where, by the way, I used to be a councillor many, many years ago. But that inspired the UK Labour Government to start pilots of free school meals for all primary school pupils in Newham in London, in Wolverhampton, and in Durham. And both in Newham and in Durham, the results were really significant, because the take-up of school meals rose from just under 50 per cent to now 87 per cent in one area, and 85 per cent in Durham. As you would expect, many more children were eating vegetables at lunch. It was up by a fifth. And there was a steep declinein the items associated with packed lunches, i.e. sandwiches, soft drinks and crisps. Sandwiches are a catch-all for all manner of things; they can be very nutritious, or they can be atrociously not. But soft drinks and crisps have almost no nutritional value whatsoever.
But I think, academically, what was really interesting was that students were on average two months ahead of their peers in schools who weren't in receipt of this benefit. And it had a bigger effect on literacy levels than the introduction of the compulsory literacy hour in 1998. So, it had a massive impact on children's literacy attainment, and the improvements were most marked amongst children from the less affluent families. But in addition to that, it actually saw a major improvement in academic performance across all subjects, and this is hardly surprising, because children can't be concentrating if they're hungry. And we all have stories of children who absolutely are starving when they turn up in school on Monday morning, and need to be fed, and are fed, by teachers who take them seriously.
I think the thing we really need to home in on is the cost. Because the Soil Association has calculated that, if we assumed that the cost of the meal was £1.76, for pupils aged five to 10, it would cost about £82 million for universal free school meals, whereas another calculation was that it would be over £100 million. We really do need to tie this down, but I think that, if we all have a commitment to introduce universal free school meals for all primary schools in the next Parliament, then we would ensure that it was introduced, gradually and in line with the foundational economy and the well-being of future generations Act.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Firstly, I want to thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate to the Senedd today on this critically important subject. I wish to start, if I may, by thanking the leadership and the determined efforts of Welsh Government, and, in my own area, Caerphilly council, in providing an innovative local free-school-meal provision. Free school meals have never been more desperately needed by so many during the increasing desperation of this pandemic, as the punitive UK Government welfare cuts and tax credit and benefit withdrawal continues to impoverish, at this time, the very poorest in our society. So, I do pay tribute to the record of the Welsh Government and Caerphilly council today, and their amazing network of volunteers across Islwyn. When we entered lockdown, Caerphilly council swiftly and agilely pulled together local menus and local procurement, as has been stated, providing five healthy nutritious meals a week. There's a model there already.
Now, many of us will have been moved and inspired by the strong and determined campaigning of Marcus Rashford recently—whatever our football bias. As a free-school-meal pupil himself, he has been absolutely inspirational and a true role model for those in poverty today, not just as a footballer but as a social role model. England's future generations will remember him, as will we. But as the Tories in Westminster continue to oppose extending free school meals, before eventually folding—not, may I add, due to the needs of its poorest people, but to the extreme pressure of social media and celebrities on the matter—here in Wales, let's be honest, our Welsh Labour Government was already leading the way, and we can be proud so far of our record on free school meals in a devolved Wales. Indeed, in response to the Welsh Government's guaranteed free-school-meal provision for all school holidays until Easter 2021, Marcus Rashford welcomed the Welsh Government's swift response to this urgent need in protecting the most vulnerable children across the country.
But we have to be realistic. We still remain as a nation, despite recent inputs, on a 2010 income level. Cadeirydd, our free-school-meal offer here in Wales is the most generous across the UK nations, and we are the only nation to offer free breakfasts at primary. But is this enough? No, it's not—it's really not enough. We want and should and must do more. But I would, as would Welsh Government, need to see that detail, as has been said, on this proposal. Because the reality of Government, compared to making up policies that rob Peter to pay Paul, or if the Tories do, with no countenance of the miserly budget Wales is drip fed from the Treasury—the reality of Government is that this very considerable policy will have to come from somewhere, and from someone else. So, Llywydd, I do not envy those choices that this ethical, radical and ambitious Government, of which I belong and which represents the interests of the most vulnerable in our society, has to make. This is a good example—to conclude—and a good debate. So, I do welcome this opportunity. And I would say this to Plaid Cymru: show us those details, and suggest where we find the money, because we both know we will not be getting it from a cruel and impoverishing UK Tory Government. Diolch.

John Griffiths AC: Food is important in so many ways: to health and well-being, quality of life, our economy and environment, to tackling inequalities, and, yes, in our schools. So, it was good to hear the First Minister, in his questions yesterday, making clear his Government's commitment to addressing issues of school meals and quality and ensuring provision. And he was quite clear, wasn't he, that in doing that, it demonstrates societal valuing of education. It makes a very powerful statement to our young people, and I do believe Welsh Government has acted on that commitment. It's good to see practical outcomes from that—during the pandemic, for example, continuing free school meals during school closures and holidays, and the launch of a joint Welsh Government and Welsh Local Government Association campaign to address the substantial—around 25 per cent—underclaiming of free school meals. But, yes, there is a lot more to do.
Encouragingly, we have strong campaigns for progress by, amongst others, the anti-poverty coalition and the Child Poverty Action Group. The latter's research in Wales shows more than half of children in poverty ineligible for support. So, in a class of 25, seven children will be in poverty and four of those will not qualify. Almost 6,000 children have no recourse to public funds as a result of UK Government policy on immigration status, but, thankfully, Welsh Government have provided free school meal support during COVID-19.
And, yes, it is good to see those who have achieved success and fame using their profile for the greater good. Marcus Rashford is a great example. His food poverty taskforce's petition on these issues has over 1 million signatures. And we see, from the work of the University of Essex, that universal free school meals in the foundation phase led to better uptake by all children, helped families with the cost of living and helped tackle obesity, poor attendance and the attainment gap.
COVID-19 and likely rising prices from Brexit exacerbate the issues that we face. But Welsh Government has acted to address free-school-meal issues and is committed to review income thresholds. I do believe that this should be built upon by work on further widening provision, looking at the foundation phase and all pre-16 education, making permanent current arrangements outside term time and for those with no recourse to public funds, and looking at the wider issues that people have mentioned—how quality local food can be sourced for our schoolchildren to aid healthy eating and, of course, to help the local economy and our environment.
These issues around free school meals really do touch a lot of the most important things that we can do in practical terms, as a Welsh Government, here in Wales, to create the sort of country we want to see. So, I hope we build on this debate today, which I very much welcome to make the further progress needed.

David Melding AC: I call the education Minister, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. Could I begin by thanking Plaid Cymru for the opportunity to talk about how Wales has led the UK in prioritising the welfare of families and how we have worked effectively with local governmentto deliver efficient and effective provision? We do indeed, as has been referenced in the debate, have the most generous Government in the UK when it comes to providing support for those who need it the most. Ensuring the continuation of free school meal provision has, and will, continue to be a key priority as we respond to the coronavirus pandemic. And it may be useful to remind everyone of what we've been able to achieve so far.

Kirsty Williams AC: We remain the only Government in the United Kingdom to provide universal breakfast for primary school pupils and of course, we have plans to see what we can do to extend that provision for year 7 pupils. We were the first Government to confirm funding over the Easter and half-term holidays in 2020 and funding for the provision of free school meals from September 2020 through to Easter 2021, and that does indeed include half-term holidays, Mike Hedges.
We have made the most generous provision of any UK Government available of £19.50 per child, per week. And we were also the first Government to provide funding of an additional £1.28 million to meet the additional costs incurred by local government during the first two weeks of the autumn term to cover the phased return to schooling. And we were also the first Government to agree funding for children who are shielding or self-isolating so that they continue to receive support if they are unable to attend school through no fault of their own. In total, we have committed over £52 million to ensure that children eligible for free school meals do not go hungry during these unprecedented times.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank our partners in local government across Wales, to acknowledge the speed in which they responded to the original call to arms, their creative and innovative approaches, and for the hard work and dedication of their officers who have been so crucial in ensuring that families are supported. And can I also take this opportunity to thank catering staff, who've been working in really challenging conditions since schools returned for the September term? Many of you have heard me say before: my Grandma was the school cook for many years in Blaenymaes Primary School in Mike Hedges's constituency. She peeled a lot of potatoes for those kids, but I also know that she was one of the most beloved and important parts of her school community and that stands true for many of our catering staff who work in our schools today.
During the course of the pandemic, there has been an increase in the number of families applying for universal credit. And while not all new claimants will receive universal credit, there has definitely been an increase in families seeking their free school meal entitlement for their children. The UK Government's introduction of universal credit meant that we had to change the eligibility criteria for free school meals in Wales and it's important to note that no additional funding was, or has been, provided to the Welsh Government to manage the impact of this change, which, frankly, is a disgrace. But nonetheless, we provided additional funding of £5 million to local authorities in 2018-19 and £7 million through the local government settlement in 2019-20 and for 2021.
We've also introduced transitional protection to ensure that any change to the eligibility criteria would cause the minimum disruption possible. This means that pupils eligible for free school meals will be protected against losing them until the roll-out is complete, even if their eligibility does change. We estimate that the total number of children receiving transitional protection in any given year, during the universal credit roll-out period, will run into the tens of thousands, which the Welsh Government is committed to supporting. I have made a commitment to keep the threshold constant until the end of the universal credit roll-out period because I want to ensure that those who are in most need of support are benefiting. But I have also given a commitment to undertake a review of the threshold when the next set of pupil level annual school census data becomes available to me.
Like many people in the Chamber, who have expressed a view this afternoon, I remain concerned about the plight of children in families with no recourse to public funds who are living in poverty. However, local authorities have used, and will continue to use, their discretion to support families without an income and who are not immediately able to claim public funds. I want to continue to encourage local authorities to use that discretion and we will consider making formal amendments to complex legislation once the impact of COVID-19 has ceased and there are additional resources available to legal services.
I've listened very carefully to what has been said here today, and I know just how important free school meals are to the families who rely upon them. But there is a balance to be struck in ensuring that those most in need are provided with a means of accessing free school meals, while, at the same time, ensuring that our proposals are affordable. We do not, unfortunately, have an unlimited budget. We also need to be clear on the costs of proposals to expand eligibility. We estimate that to provide free school meals to every child whose parents receive universal credit would cost an additional £67 million a year. If we were providing free school meals to just primary school children, it would cost around £92 million a year. And if we provided free school meals to every learner of compulsory school age, it would cost around £169 million. So, if Plaid are serious about their proposals—and I have no reason to believe that they are not; and, indeed, the vision is a commendable one—they need to be absolutely clear what public services will be cut to provide that funding. And they need to be open with the public where they will begin to make that £160 million saving.
As a Government, we have a responsibility to use public money effectively by ensuring that free school meals get to those most in need, and at the present time, with the limited budget provided to us by the UK Government, I believe that the current targeted approach is the most effective use of public resources. However, that does not stop the Welsh Government from being creative and innovative, and I believe that we should acknowledge how effective our approach during COVID has been—and there are lessons for the longer term to have been learnt—whilst giving a commitment to work with our stakeholders to continue to look for opportunities, as I said, to help those most in need. But I want to thank everybody for their contributions this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

David Melding AC: I have no Member wishing to make an intervention, so I call on Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the acting Presiding Officer for calling me, and I'm very grateful to all who have taken part in the debate. I won't repeat the points that have been made very ably by my colleagues; I think the case has been powerfully put. I will try to respond to some of the points made by other Members.
I was surprised to see Suzy Davies's 'delete all'. I know she doesn't usually do that, and I'm grateful to her for her explanation. And I think her point about further education is a very important one, and that needs to be taken forward. So, I'm grateful to her for that point that she's raised. But, in the end, when it comes to the provision of universal benefits, there is just a simple philosophical difference here, a political difference here, as Delyth has pointed out. We believe, in Plaid Cymru, that children are not just the responsibility of their parents, they're the responsibility of the whole community. And we have heard from others about the way in which a continued fear of stigma does prevent even many of those who are currently eligible from taking that benefit up. Universal benefits avoid those stigma issues. So, it is a simple difference of view. I respect the way that Suzy Davies has put it across, but I disagree.
Mike Hedges's contribution was very interesting. His record on this is, of course, well known. He's right to remind us of the realities of poverty, of what it is really like to have to worry about whether you can afford to feed your children or turn the hot water on so you can wash their clothes. I'm glad he supports us on the expansion of eligibility—this is of primary importance. Our figures, the figures from the Child Poverty Action Group, suggest the cost would be £60 million; the Minister says £67 million. That is of course a lot of money, but not a huge thing. I rather liked Mike's point about, 'Perhaps we should take that out of the economic development budget'. If I'm Plaid's economy Minister in a new Government after the election, I'll be very happy to make my contribution towards that, because Mike is absolutely right, we have to deal with skills and underperformance in education. In terms of making it a universal eligibility, he's right to point out that there are practical issues, and that's why we would be taking a phased approach.
And to all Members who have asked about how we'd do it, well, we will of course set that out in the preparation of our manifesto. And I will say to Rhianon Passmore: I'm not going to show you the working out, because we on the Plaid Cymru benches are rather tired of having our good policy proposals nicked by the Labour Party. So, Rhianon will have to wait to see the manifesto before she understands exactly how we will make that work.
Other Members on the Labour benches have made some powerful points. I would say to John Griffiths, of course it is a good thing that there is discretion for free school meals to be provided for those not eligible for receipt of public funds, but I don't think it's right that that's discretionary, that should be an entitlement for those children—the poorest children. Why do we leave that to anybody's discretion? I don't understand it, and I think, in truth, he probably doesn't himself.
Jenny Rathbone's points were well made, as I said, about stigma, and the pilots do provide really interesting evidence, and that evidence about academic attainment—two months ahead of their peers because they are being fed, with no stigma, and that marked impact on less-affluent children. It's been interesting, of course, to hear Labour Members make a powerful case for doing something that they won't be able to vote for today, but I think that is still—all those contributions are—part of a really important debate.
Now, I have to say to the Welsh Government that this is another disappointing 'delete all'—not surprising, but disappointing. This is not the most generous food offer for schoolchildren in the UK. Don't take my word for it: Suzy Davies was in the event that I chaired last week looking at what the third sector organisations in Wales will say to the United Nations about whether we're meeting our convention requirements, and both the Bevan Foundation and the Child Poverty Action Group were absolutely clear that the Welsh Government offer is the least generous. Because it is generous to those who receive, but what about those who do not? And that's the point—the first part of our motion today.
Of course, the things that they're already doing are welcome. The free breakfasts are a good thing for those who are able to access them. I worry sometimes about families not being able to get their children to school in time always for free breakfasts. But that doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't deal with the fact that we have all these children living in poverty in Wales who don't claim when they are entitled because they're worried about stigma, or those who cannot, who are not entitled. And I would say to the Minister: your backbenchers know this; there's not a single one of them who said that they didn't think that universal free school meals were the right thing to do. Quite right to raise the practical issues of how you introduce that, but they know your offer isn't the most generous in their heart of hearts. The figures the Minister provided are useful and, as I've said, this would obviously be a policy that would need to be phased in.
I want to end, acting Presiding Officer, by saying this, simply and clearly, to the Welsh Government: if this Conservative United Kingdom Government, which is in charge of benefits, not notoriously generous in the way that it allows its entitlements, if this Conservative Government recognises these families as families in need of help, how can it possibly be right that this Welsh Labour Government, which calls itself a socialist Government, will not do that same?
The First Minister, responding to questions from Adam Price yesterday and Delyth Jewell, referred to the very beautiful and moving pamphlet 'They shall have flowers on the table' from the 1940s. Well, I would say to the Welsh Government today, acting Presiding Officer, that there are many families living in profound poverty in Wales who would be glad to have food on their children's table at school; flowers would be nice, but food is what they really need. These are families living in poverty. They are families that the UK Government acknowledges need support to look after their children and I am—am I disappointed? Yes, I am disappointed that this Welsh Labour so-called socialist Government does not appear to agree.

David Melding AC: The proposal to agree the motion without amendment, does any Member object? [Objection.] I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Motion to suspend Standing Orders

David Melding AC: There is now a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow the next item of business to be debated, and I call on the Counsel General to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7528 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends Standing Orders 12.20(i), 12.22(i), 29.4 and that part of Standing Order 11.16 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order 11.11 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow NDM7529 to be considered in Plenary on Wednesday 16 December 2020.

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: I move.

David Melding AC: The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? I see no objection. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Legislative Consent Motion on the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill

David Melding AC: Item 8 is the legislative consent motion on the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill, and I call on the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7529 Jeremy Miles
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of Senedd Cymru, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I move the motion. I'm pleased to bring forward a legislative consent motion in respect of the UK Government Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill. Whilst this LCM relates to a new Bill, the content is familiar, as it largely replicates data collection and sharing trade information provisions within the Trade Bill. I laid a supplementary consent memorandum relating to those provisions in November. I'd like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their recent report on the Trade Bill and the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee for their ongoing and very valuable scrutiny work.
This new, stand-alone legislation was laid by the UK Government yesterday, as the Trade Bill is now unlikely to pass or receive Royal Assent until early 2021. The Bill has been discussed in the House of Commons today. The UK Government's aim is for the Bill to be passed in the Lords tomorrow, so that it can receive Royal Assent shortly thereafter.
The Bill contains provisions that would enable Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to share data with public or private bodies in order that they can fulfil their public functions relating to trade. It also provides a legal gateway for public sector organisations to share trade-related information with the UK Government. This would capture information on flows across borders, something that is critical, irrespective of whether or not the UK secures a deal with the European Union, as there will potentially be border disruption in either scenario. These provisions will enable the UK Government's Border Operations Centre to manage and monitor disruption to the UK's borders. The intention is for the Bill to only provide a bridging mechanism until the Trade Bill itself is passed.
The memorandum laid before the Senedd earlier today sets out the provisions for which consent is sought. Clauses 2 and 3of the Bill contain provision that is within the competence of the Senedd, and, whilst they are not contentious, it is important that the Senedd should consider them, and, I believe, grant consent. It is the Welsh Government's view that it is appropriate to deal with these provisions in this UK Bill, as the Bill covers both devolved and non-devolved matters. Legislating via a UK-wide Bill is the most effective and proportionate legislative vehicle for creating data-sharing arrangements in relation to trade. I therefore move the motion and ask the Senedd to approve the legislative consent motion.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. As the Counsel General has explained, the Bill provides data-sharing measures that are required as the UK prepares for its new relationship with the European Union. These provisions were previously included in Part 3 of the UK Trade Bill, as has been outlined. However, as we know, the Bill's passage through the UK Parliament has been delayed and the Government has introduced this Bill, containing the same disclosure information as was previously included in the Trade Bill.
The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee reported on the Welsh Government's supplementary legislative consent memorandum, that's memorandum No. 2 on the Trade Bill, on 4 December 2020. We agreed with the view of the Welsh Government that clauses 9 and 10 of that Bill, which are the new clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill we are considering today, require the Senedd'sconsent.
Specifically in relation to the regulation-making power in clause 2(9) of the Bill, this is a Henry VIII power in that it enables regulations to be used to amend the list of specified public authorities in clause 2(3). Such regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure. Furthermore, a statutory instrument consent memorandum will be required in accordance with Standing Order 30A should a Minister of the Crown make provisions in relation to Wales by amending the list of public authorities in clause 2(3) to include non-reserved authorities.
I note the Welsh Government's reasons for making the relevant provisions for Wales in the Bill. The LCM says that:
'To ensure benefits can be accrued in Wales, we sought assurances from the UK Government'.
Paragraph 11 of the LCM states:
'The Welsh Government considers that it has previously received sufficient assurances from the UK Government in response to these requests and that they will apply to this Bill as they did to the Trade Bill. To confirm this, the commitments will be restated, either in the Houses of Parliament or within a Ministerial letter.'
After outlining commitments given by the UK Government in October, the legislative consent memorandum says in paragraph 13:
'We believe the assurances previously provided are sufficient, once they have been restated'.
Now, in our reports on the LCM and the supplementary LCM related to the current Trade Bill, we've expressed concerns about the lack of clarity around these despatch-box commitments and sought clarification from the Welsh Government. It would therefore be helpful if the Counsel General could explain what discussions he has had with the UK Government about the despatch-box commitments as they apply to the Bill we are considering today. In addition, can he also say whether he expects the commitments to be made in the UK Parliament during its consideration of the Bill or by letter at a later date? The Welsh Government is aware of the committee's concerns regarding the repeated use of varying forms of inter-governmental agreements, whether they be memoranda of understanding or commitments spoken at the despatch box. So, we remain apprehensive at the increasing use of such non-binding agreements, but also at the collective impact of the number of these, as they composite and, in our view, impact on the clarity and probity of the devolution settlement. Thank you, Llywydd.

Dai Lloyd AC: I'm pleased to take part in this debate. Now, we are talking about legislative consent for the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill, not the actual full Trade Bill, because, as we've heard from the Counsel General, events have overtaken and there's a particular timetable with the end of the year approaching, which means that we are debating a Bill here that is largely technical in nature, as we've heard from both the Counsel General and the Chair of the legislation committee. Now, as a member of both the committees—both the legislation committee and the external affairs committee—I am grateful to both of those committees for involvement in the deliberations both on the Trade Bill and obviously on this LCM for the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill today.
Now, as has been pointed out by the Chair of the legislation committee in his detailed analysis, which I share, yes, this particular Bill is just about disclosure of information and the free sharing of information between Governments, but, obviously, as has been alluded to, the provisions of this Bill are dependent at least in part on assurances to Welsh Government given by despatch-box promises at Westminster. Now, I remain very critical of such despatch-box promises, as I outlined last week in the LCM debate on the internal market Bill. I've said it several times: the Sewel convention, it seems to be forgotten about; inter-governmental agreements are not legally binding, they're unenforceable, and despatch-box promises even more so. It is just a Minister standing up in Westminster and promising. I would contend, as the Chair of legislation has said, that they are in fact completely unenforceable. It has been said once, it also—we are dependent, or Welsh Government is dependent, on Ministers in Westminster reiterating that despatch-box promise again, and we look forward to confirmation of that. But, in general, despatch-box promises are completely unenforceable, dependent on trust in a Government in another country. So, as a result, Plaid Cymru will abstain on this legislative consent motion. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Counsel General to respond to the debate—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to those who've contributed to the debate. May I just say that I am aware of the discussion on that kind of assurance, but we have been able to assure ourselves that the pledges made are meaningful in this context? May I just confirm that the assurances provided in the context of the equality issues in the earlier Bill have been repeated in Parliament in the context of this Bill, so I don't see any problems with asking the Senedd to give its consent to this Bill. We are meeting an important demand in doing that, namely enabling the UK Government to operate our borders more effectively, and that will be important in the context of leaving the European Union, either with a deal or without.

The proposal therefore is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection and therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

And we are about to move to voting time, so we will take a brief break to prepare for the vote.

Plenary was suspended at 18:55.

The Senedd reconvened at 19:01, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, and the first votes this afternoon are on the Plaid Cymru debate on free school meals. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour eight, three abstentions, and 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate - Free school meals - Motion without amendment: For: 8, Against: 38, Abstain: 3
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote, therefore, is on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, five abstentions, 18 against, and therefore amendment 1 is agreed, and amendment 2 is deselected.

Plaid Cymru debate - Amendment 1 (tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans): For: 26, Against: 18, Abstain: 5
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deslected.

We will therefore vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7521 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
Welcomes that the Welsh Government:
a) provided over £50 million of additional funding to ensure the continued provision of free school meals during the pandemic and was the first government in the UK to provide provision during school holidays;
b) provided additional funding to ensure that children who are self-isolating or shielding continue to receive free school meal provision when they are not able to attend school;
c) provides funding of £19.50 per week to free school meal-eligible families, which is the most generous provision in the UK;
d) ensured that Wales remains the only country in the UK to have a universal free breakfasts in primary schools scheme;
e) has been recognised by the Education Policy Institute (EPI) for being successful in ensuring families eligible for free school meals during the pandemic had “access to timely and appropriate support”;
f) is committed to reviewing the income threshold for receiving free school meals when Pupil Level Annual School Census (PLASC) data becomes available in April 2021.

Motion as amended, open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, five abstentions, 18 against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate - Motion as amended: For: 26, Against: 18, Abstain: 5
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote, and the final vote, is on the legislative consent motion on the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jeremy Miles. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, eight abstentions and none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Legislative Consent Motion on the Trade (Disclosure of Information) Bill: For: 41, Against: 0, Abstain: 8
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time.

10. Short Debate: The importance of fans at sporting events for the social fabric of our communities—Postponed from 9 December

We move on, therefore, to the first of the two short debates we have this afternoon. The first was postponed from 9 December and is to be presented by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to move the first of the short debates this evening. I can see the Chamber full of bodies who want to listen to this really important debate, and it is an important debate, in fairness, because it relies on the letter that was sent by various governing bodies and people interested in the return of fans to sports, ranging from the Football Association of Wales, the Welsh Rugby Union, Glamorgan County Cricket Club, Swansea City Association Football Club, Newport Dragons Rugby, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Ffos Las and Chepstow Racecourse, Bangor-on-Dee Racecourse, Wrexham Association Football Club and Cardiff Devils, to name but a few. I do think it's important that I enter this into the Record of the Assembly. I appreciate that the events around COVID restrictions have changed today from when my debate was first to be taken last week. But I think the questions posed in this letter are important and deserve answers from the Minister, because the letter is directed at the First Minister. But I'm sure, hopefully by now, as this letter was sent on 7 December, it has found its way to the Minister responsible for sports and sports facilities here in Wales, and he will be able to address the points that are laid out in the letter.

David Melding took the Chair.

Andrew RT Davies AC: So, the letter begins by saying,
'Dear First Minister,
'We are writing as executives and senior representatives of rugby, cricket, horse racing and football—the elite stadium sports in Wales.
'Sport is a fundamental part of life in Wales. It puts our nation on the global stage and provides communities across Wales with a sense of belonging and identity. We form part of an industry that employs thousands of people across the country, our contribution to the Welsh economy, employment and well-being is significant, but this is now at risk.
'We urge Welsh Government to reconsider its approach to the socially distanced return of fans to our sports grounds by embracing the current Sports Grounds Safety Authority'—
and I'll be referring to that as 'SGSA' further on—
'guidance known as “SGO2” and withdraw the variant “SG02W” which has been requested by Welsh Government.
'On Monday 30th November, an in-person and virtual meeting was held at Cardiff City Stadium to consider the socially distanced return of fans to our stadia. It was attended by Welsh Government and representatives from WRU, FAW, the Welsh regions, Glamorgan cricket, horse racing and Welsh professional football clubs as well as SGSA, EFL and SAG.
'The meeting noted the publication of the SGSA guidance known as SG02, which is generally based on a social distance of one metre plus mitigations. The SGO2 guidance was issued following extensive consultation, it has underpinned the detailed planning for the return of fans to English stadia from 2nd December, and indeed has been widely acclaimed and shared by the SGSA with countries around the world.
'Taking a more cautious approach, the Welsh Government asked the SGSA to prepare a version of SG02 based on a social distance of two metres. A draft (SG02W) has been received and circulated, but not published. We as a group of national governing bodies and senior clubs urge that this draft be withdrawn and that the Welsh government also embrace the highly regarded SG02 version and subsequently allow test events to be run using this guidance with events taking place as soon as possible.
'We say this because while SG02 reduces expected attendances to between 25% and 35% of capacity depending on concourse densities and stadium layouts. The Welsh version would further reduce capacity to under 10% a level which in effect closes our businesses to the public indefinitely.
'At the meeting, all sporting organisations were extremely disappointed by the lack of prior consultation and the entrenched position adopted by Welsh Government officials during the meeting left us full of concern.
'The situation is grave; the lack of a clear roadmap for the return of spectators in Wales poses the real risk of bankruptcy for our sports. We manage highly regulated stadia, which are overseen by the SGSA who issue our licenses and Safety certificates in conjunction with our respective Safety Advisory Groups (which includes local authority, building control and the emergency services).
'We respect the need to return when it is safe to do so'—
which I think is a critical point—
'and acknowledge the need to follow science'—
again, another critical point—
'yet highlight the reluctance of Welsh Government to look at a “managed and engineered solution” not present in the retail, construction, transport or hospitality sectors. SG02W will be a significant roadblock that does not offer us a pragmatic or sustainable solution and believe in order to move forward it is essential to have a transparent and collaborative approach with Welsh Government combined with Public Health Wales.
'This will ensure as a collective, we are able to produce a clear roadmap for meaningful pilot test events and the safe return of fans to sporting grounds and events. You will also be very conscious that Welsh sports fans are watching what is happening over the border.
'The clamour for the return of fans to supporting their clubs and national teams can only now continue to increase as the governing bodies and sports clubs suffer without direction or a viable road map in a time when their finances are crumbling before them.
'For a nation that is small in size, Wales punches well above its weight in sporting terms; we want to work with Welsh Government to ensure the survival of our people, clubs, businesses and the future of sport in Wales.
'So, as we stated at the beginning of this letter, we call on Welsh Government to withdraw SG02W and embrace the published SGSA guidance SG02, commit to transparency on the science and a collaborative approach between the sporting bodies, senior clubs, Public Health Wales and Welsh Government in order to provide a clear roadmap for meaningful pilot test events and the safe return of fans to sports grounds.'
Now, I appreciate that that letter was written before the regulation changes that were announced by the First Minister today. But, surely, at some point in the future, we will hopefully see a return to an element of normality—whether that's a new normality or the previous normality that we took for granted. But, it is vital that clubs such as I mentioned at the start of my presentation—and, indeed, grass-roots clubs—have an understanding of how the pyramid of sport that is the family of sport within Wales can begin to see a return of fans to support the clubs that they care about and cherish so much, as well as other sporting ventures, such as horse-racing and the Cardiff Devils.
So, I do hope that the Minister will be able to engage with this open letter—it is an open letter that has been made available to the public—because it has been in the hands of the Welsh Government for some time now, and give a full response, so that we may be able to understand whether there is any movement from the Welsh Government to engage and facilitate such measures when the science allows and when the regulations allow here in Wales. Thank you very much.

David Melding AC: Andrew, did you yield any of your time?

Andrew RT Davies AC: No, no requests.

David Melding AC: Thank you. I call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to reply. Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much, acting Chair. May I first of all thank and acknowledge Andrew R.T. Davies's contribution to this debate, and also, if I may say, for the good neighbourliness—for which he is well known—in the Vale of Glamorgan? But, perhaps he won't agree with much more that I have to say today, because the first message that I have to restate today on behalf of the Welsh Government is that the first consideration for us as a responsible Government is public health.
The fact that this debate has had to take place today, rather than earlier on, demonstrates how dangerous it is for us to take decisions with regard to public health on short-term changes. Because by this evening, the situation with regard to public health in Wales is entirely serious. So, I don't think that it is appropriate for us to state any kind of promise with regard to a timescale for when we could change this situation.
Now, clearly, I am just as eager as Andrew R.T. Davies is to see crowds of supporters returning to sports grounds. I accept that crowds of supporters are vital to sport being enjoyable. But, the same debate arises with regard to audiences in other fields that are my responsibility, in the arts, for example. And even though we want to see supporters returning, that does have to happen in a safe way.
We, of course, compare our situation with what is happening in England and Scotland, and what has happened, unfortunately, in London and the south-east of England over the past few days. So, it is very important that we do make it clear that the Welsh Government has the firm will to allow the return of sports. I accept what Andrew R.T. Davies has said about the importance of sports clubs and the revenue that comes from sports clubs, particularly with regard to football, on the community level as well as the national level.
We had started with a number of plans for test events that would have included supporters, but we did have to postpone those test events. But, I can give an assurance that my officials who are involved in sport and who engage specifically with public health within the Government do have constant, consistent communication with all of the football associations, the rugby associations, the cricket bodies and the sports societies as well. We work with Sport Wales very closely, as well as with the national governing bodies.
I announced recently a sport and leisure fund that was worth £14 million for 2020-21 to help the sector, and I accept that this is insufficient to deal with the situation. But this sport and leisure recovery fund is being administered on behalf of the Welsh Government by Sport Wales as our main partner in this field, and that work continues. And I am very eager to provide assurance to Andrew R.T. Davies that the Welsh Government is very willing to have that constant, consistent dialogue with the sports organisations, but the first priority has to be the prioritisation of public health.

11. Short Debate: Save our statues: The continuing importance of historic memorials and monuments

David Melding AC: Thank you. We now move to item 11, which is today's scheduled short debate, and I call on Neil Hamilton to speak to the topic he has chosen.

Neil Hamilton AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and I'm delighted to be back in the Chamber for the first time since March, although I apologise to my old parliamentary colleague, the Minister, for detaining him so late in the day. But I'm delighted to see him, and I can't think of anybody better to answer this debate.
This debate arises, as I'm sure everybody realises, from the politically motivated campaign by supporters of the Marxist pressure group Black Lives Matter to remove a statute of Sir Thomas Picton from Cardiff City Hall, and a war memorial obelisk from Picton Terrace, or just outside Picton Terrace, in Carmarthen. This campaign is nothing less than an attempt to erase an important part of Wales's history. The removal of either of these monuments, in my view, would be an act of cultural and artistic vandalism. Both of them are listed and protected by Cadw as monuments of historic, artistic and architectural significance. The statue in City Hall is a grade I listed structure, and the obelisk is listed grade II. The statue in City Hall is integral to the 11 statutes of Welsh heroes that are in the marble hall, and the marble hall is also listed grade I. And the ensemble—both the hall and the statues together—are also listed as being grade I and therefore of the utmost significance. Indeed, as Cardiff City Hall's own website explains, suggestions for the subjects of these statues were invited 100 years ago from all over Wales, and each statue is the work of a different sculptor. And it was a twentieth-century hero, David Lloyd George, who at that time was the Secretary of State for War, but would shortly thereafter become Prime Minister, who unveiled the statues, and a painting of that ceremony is displayed in the hall. The 11 heroes of Wales—and a very diverse collection they are—were chosen by the Welsh people in an open competition, a competition that was held by theWestern Mail, and the statues were not paid for by the taxpayer; they were paid for by Lord Rhondda in a munificent gift.
Now, a collection of politically motivated nobodies on Cardiff City Council wants to vandalise this artistic conception by removing the Picton statue. The other heroes include Boadicea and Henry VII, neither of whom, I think, by common consent was a twentieth-century woke liberal, and, indeed, both of them slaughtered their opponents without scruple. So, how long will it be before the nobodies move on to them to erect the statue of their hero in their place, career criminal and drug dealer, George Floyd? Why did the Welsh people choose in a free vote to commemorate Sir Thomas Picton as one of the 11 heroes? Well, he was the highest ranking officer to be killed in the battle of Waterloo. He was a lieutenant general, and as Wellington's despatch at the time recorded,
'He fell gloriously leading his division to a charge with bayonets, by which one of the most serious attacks made by the enemy of our position was defeated.'
Picton was a man of fearless valour, and his last words leading the charge were, 'Charge, charge, hurrah, hurrah'. Amazingly, two days before, at the other important skirmish before the Battle of Waterloo, at Quatre Bras, he had been shot in the hip by a musket ball and was in considerable pain. But he concealed this. The only person he told about the wound was his servant. He didn't seek any medical assistance at all, he bandaged the wound up and carried on fighting.

Neil Hamilton AC: His valour at Waterloo was matched in the preceding years, because he played a pivotal part in the road to Waterloo, through Spain, in the Peninsular war. And he was, I think, a very significant element in forcing the French out of Spain, where of course Napoleon had installed his brother as the king. And the battles in which Picton played such an important part are commemorated on the obelisk in Carmarthen: the battles of Bussaco, Fuentes de Oñoro, Badajoz—which was a very terrible engagement; he was severely wounded there as well. But he wouldn't leave the ramparts, and the day after, having recently inherited a fortune having won the battle, he gave every survivor under his command a guinea, which was a considerable sum in those days. He then was invalided home, but he returned later in the year to fight the battles of Victoria, and to fight through the Pyrenees. This was a very important part of forcing Napoleon back to, ultimately, Waterloo and his own personal destruction. Picton was awarded the KCB and he became the Member of Parliament for Pembroke Boroughs.
After he was killed at Waterloo, his body was brought home in state, accompanied by a regiment of soldiers, who took over a week to get from Deal, where they landed, to London, where he was buried first of all in St George's, Hanover Square, but a public monument was erected by order of Parliament in St Paul's Cathedral. When Wellington died, in 1852, a decision was taken to exhume Picton from St George's, Hanover Square, and he was then reburied in St Paul's Cathedral, which is where he lies today.
Of course, his life did have certain controversies in it, which were well known at the time, when he was Governor of Trinidad. But his defence to the charges that were laid against him was that he was acting under the orders of his superior officer, Abercromby, who said that he had to administer the law according to the laws of Spain, from whom Britain had recently taken Trinidad.
But history is a chequerboard, and we have to accept the good with the bad—the black squares as well as the white squares. Guy Gibson won the Victoria Cross for the dambusters raid, but, as everybody knows, he had a dog called Nigger, and would that bar him, similarly, from being commemorated today? Well, I think not. Nobody approves of using words like that any more, but we have to recognise that these men were men of their time, in their different ways, and that has, I think, to be accommodated.
It's very important, I think, that we should memorialise Welsh and British heroes, because the history of a nation defines that nation, and ripping up every reference that we find inconvenient today to our great history and heritage is not, I think, something to be proud of. History should always be judged in its own context, and the motives of those who judge history in today's context I think should be treated with suspicion, because more often than not, as in this case, the motivation will be for some kind of political objective and not revising an historical narrative.
These are great people who are being commemorated for the great things that they did during their time, and removing problematic statues will not, of course, wash away the painful periods of our past. It seems that no statue is safe. Picton I've spoken about, and the paradox of Picton is that the man he was fighting, Napoleon, had actually reintroduced slavery into the West Indies, in 1802, it having first of all been abolished by the Revolutionary Government in 1794. And so, the ultimate victory of Waterloo, in which Picton himself played a significant part, was responsible for the abolition of slavery in the West Indies. And so, is that not another reason why we should commemorate Sir Thomas Picton?
The contrast with France is very significant, of course. Whilst we have people in this country who want to get rid of monuments to Picton, Napoleon still lies in state in the Hôtel des Invalides, and is regarded as one of the great Frenchmen, even though he tried to enslave the whole of Europe.

Neil Hamilton AC: The Welsh Government has also targeted Winston Churchill as somebody perhaps who is problematic—the man who fought against racism and fascism in the form of Nazism and whose great speeches in 1940 and afterwards inspired the nation to ultimate success and the destruction of Nazism. Lord Nelson, also. He's in the firing line, even though he had no meaningful links with slavery and paralysed French and Spanish naval dominance at Trafalgar. These three historical figures alone changed the landscape of Britain and, without their victories in the Napoleonic wars or the second world war, Britain would have fallen to European militarised dictatorial powers.
Welsh Labour, in my view—and it's not just Welsh Labour, but they are the Government, of course—is creating visible problems in today's society with their audit of these statues. It's no wonder that, in a recent survey, 55 per cent of UK adults believe that Black Lives Matter have increased racial tensions, and 44 per cent of ethnic minorities also believe that Black Lives Matter have raised racial tensions. And this feeds into the wider cancel culture that is taking over western society, as Brendan O'Neill, the editor of Spiked magazine, which I used to subscribe to, when it was called Living Marxism, describes as,'The woke elites have launched a neo-Maoist war on the past.' We've seen the ultimate expression of that, of course, in Cambodia, where they turned the clock back to year zero, and the killing fields were the consequence. Well, of course, I'm not comparing the ambitions of those who want to remove general Picton with Pol Pot in Cambodia, but, nevertheless, I think it's a significant point that needs to be considered.
There is a toxic culture that has been brought on by the Black Lives Matter syndrome, if I can put it like that, which has meant that people can't express their views anymore safely online. They risk their jobs simply for taking pride in or standing up for their heritage. I can give you one example. There was a man who flew 'White Lives Matter' as a banner above Burnley football club. He lost his job as a result. Manx Radio took Stu Peters off the air after he questioned white privilege. I've had people write to me who have been threatened with disciplinary action at work for sharing content online, from mainstream political parties, on the subject of Black Lives Matter protests when war memorials have been vandalised.
This entire statue, streets and building names review that the Welsh Government is currently embarking on is completely down to Black Lives Matter. They acknowledged that in the announcement of the audit. This is an inherently Marxist body, which wishes to destroy our very way of life, which is why they're attacking our history and heritage. Their explicit aims are, and I quote, from their website, 'to dismantle capitalism', 'to 'defund the police', 'abolish prisons', and 'get rid of borders'. Is this what the Welsh Government really believes in? Well, anybody with an understanding of history must realise it's totally inappropriate to hold people of the past to the standards of today. We had a minute's silence in this place for George Floyd. When I asked that, shortly afterwards, there should be a commemoration for the three people who were murdered in a public park in Reading by an Islamic extremist, who was convicted only a couple of weeks ago for those murders, answer came there none, certainly not an affirmative one.
Well, I think this is an unfortunate way in which to proceed. But an essential knowledge of Britain's past, I think, is being replaced by politically correct topics in some of our educational institutions, and some of the most important influential historical events are ignored or downplayed—things like the English civil war, the industrial revolution, horrors of the Soviet Union et cetera. If children aren't taught about their history, they can't be fully conversant with it, and consequentially future generations risk being even more detached from their ancestors and, ultimately, their country as a whole.
A great French philosopher and writer, Alexis de Tocqueville, once said that
'as the past has ceased to throw its light upon the future, the mind of man wanders in obscurity'.
And I think the removal of statues conveys a stark message that Britain's historical figures who shaped Britain into the country that it is today should be forgotten. And never let it be forgotten that we were the first country to abolish the slave trade itself, at a time when slavery was commonplace around the world. African tribes enslaved each other. The Ottomans enslaved occupied territories, and so on.We should be proud that we were the first country to outlaw the slave trade. In 1808, we established the West Africa Squadron to patrol the seas to eliminate any remnants of the slave trade. We captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 African slaves. Well, why shouldn't they be commemorated? Instead of tearing down statues, we should be erecting more of them to other heroes, who don't have appropriate commemoration.
So, I call upon the Government to abandon its campaign to take down these essential parts of our heritage. But the public, of course, are not buying the narrative. In the case of the Carmarthen obelisk, the culture committee this week received evidence about the consultation that Carmarthenshire County Council had engaged in and the public are overwhelmingly against removing the obelisk, two to one. And among three separate age groups, in which they've been grouped—16 to 24, 25 to 54 and 55 plus—consistently across the generations, the majority against removing the obelisk is the same.

David Melding AC: Your time's nearly up now.

Neil Hamilton AC: I'm just winding up. We have to come to terms with our heritage and so I hope that this debate will be an opportunity whereby we can start this process of assimilating our past in a way that we can be proud of, but without disguising those parts of it that need to be known about and that we would no longer find acceptable today.

David Melding AC: I call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to reply to the debate—Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: May I first of all acknowledge the wonder of the speech that we've just heard—one of the most staggering in the history of this Senedd? But I am not surprised, of course, because, as Neil Hamilton mentioned very kindly, we were both Members of another Parliament in Westminster. I won't seek to respond to the broad international and philosophical canvas he chose to paint for us. But I will, first of all, set out what the system is for scrapping statues, and this is entirely clear and based in law: if statues or monuments are listed, then you must have listed building consent in order to remove them.
Now, I won't comment on the individual cases that he has mentioned, because if there were a request to delist over the next four months, it would end up on my desk as the Minister with responsibility for this area. But it is important that I state that this process is administered by local planning authorities and that particular consideration will be given to how desirable safeguarding a listed structure would be, in terms of its location or any particular features of historical or architectural importance, before deciding whether it should be removed or taken down.
Now, particular historic consideration may be very pertinent in this debate, because history is not a process controlled by the past; history is a science that is understood and read in the present, hopefully with a view to the future, or at least that's how I was taught in a number of universities in Scotland and in Wales. And I want to make it entirely clear, therefore that, to my mind, if any Member of this Senedd has the desire to see any statutes or commemorations removed, then that request must go through the appropriate process. Cadw, on behalf of Welsh Ministers—it's a body that I'm responsible for—recommend which buildings and monuments should be listed or delisted, which is another reason why I can't respond directly to the individual cases that Neil Hamilton has referred to. But it's only in the light of new evidence that any request to delist any structure would be considered, and that evidence must relate to architectural or particular historical interest.
And, of course, if one accepts that historical hermeneutics is the only way to understand history, then it's possible that we understand history differently now than the way we understood history a century ago, when some of the memorials mentioned were erected. And it is possible—I'm not saying it's desirable or undesirable—to make an application to ensure that monuments or statues are moved or removed. And Neil Hamilton hasn't been fair with the city of Cardiff in this case. As I understand it—and I haven't been there to look at it in detail—the particular monument he referred to hasn't been removed, it has been boxed. And if the government of this city and county of Cardiff decide that the historical aspects of Thomas Picton have changed to justify placing it in a box, then that is a matter for the city and county of Cardiff. It is—[Interruption.] Legally speaking, it is, unless someone leads a process asking for them to act differently.
Neil Hamilton also made specific reference to Black Lives Matter. Now, I have to say that, although he used the term 'Marxist', which is usually used in an accusatory way, about people who are on the left and are described as communist—. I was once called 'the Marxist from Meirionnydd'. Well, I certainly am from that area in terms of my family, but I wouldn't espouse an unreasonable Marxist theory in any sense in my public life, or my academic life previously. So, it is time that we had a better understanding of this idea of the future and our past. Removing statues is lawful, but that process has to be gone through. It's not a matter of having a rhetorical debate in the Senedd or some sort of brief academic lecture from the culture Minister—that should not be the process for that.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much, Minister. And that concludes today's proceedings.

The meeting ended at 19:37.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

Rhianon Passmore: What is the Welsh Government doing to increase the supply of social and affordable housing throughout the communities of Islwyn?

Julie James: We have made a record £2billon investment in affordable housing this term. This investment is helping to support social and affordable housing throughout communities in Islwyn, and across Wales. Housing and supporting those in greatest need has, and always will be, a priority for this Government.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What is the Welsh Government doing to support small and medium-scale local builders to be part of the expansion in house building in Wales?

Julie James: The Welsh Government has a strong track record in supporting small and medium sized local house builders in Wales. We provide a range of support for our house builders and we tailor our policies, offer advice and provide financial assistance to ensure businesses are supported.

David J. Rowlands: Will the Minister make a statement on house building in South Wales East?

Julie James: Housing building is a key priority for this government and that is why we have invested a record £2 billion in housing during this Senedd term. Our investment supports the delivery of social, affordable and market homes and provides a boost to the house building industry and its supply chains.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government

Vikki Howells: Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for town centres during the coronavirus pandemic?

Hannah Blythyn: We know and recognise that our towns matter. We have provided £9 million to support town centres during the pandemic – £5.3 million for adaptations to enable safe reopening and £3.7 million in specific support for valleys towns. This is in addition to the £90 million Transforming Towns package of support I announced in January.

Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

David J. Rowlands: Will the Minister make a statement on tree felling by Torfaen County Borough Council?

Lesley Griffiths: Tree felling has taken place within the Torfaen County Borough Council area for health and safety purposes due to Ash Dieback. The Council manage these responsibilities in line with Welsh Government policies and NRW’s guidance.

Hefin David: Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's flood relief plans for Caerphilly?

Lesley Griffiths: This year, we have invested over £1.38m across Caerphilly County Borough Council to support emergency repairs, deliver flood schemes and property resilience measures, benefitting over 330 properties, and for preparatory work on future schemes.